Moving Closer to WW3

Once the areas are annexed, any attacks by Ukraine are an act of war against Russia,

Qaz,

If y’all have not noticed there have been acts of war going on for months now dating back to the beginning of this year. There would be no “new” acts of war. There would be a continuation of killing as many Russians as possible. No surprise there.

If Putin feels better making pronouncements…so freak’n what?

If Putin wants to call up more men, which he is doing right now as of overnight, those men will get a shock. Putin does not have the money to pay. The Kremlin as of this month is running in the red. Hyperinflation is about to set in as Putin prints.

Listen as someone with a long history of family being killed in Eastern Europe, Russia, putting a bullet in Putin’s head is the only option for the Russian people. Once that is done some Russian mom’s will be spared.

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IMO Russia does not have the ability to level every Ukrainian city. Russia does not have air superiority over Ukraine.

ditto, there are 900k Ukrainian reservists and Ukraine’s military is more modern. Where a Ukrainian will kill any thing in his or her path, the Russians are prone to run away.

Also Russia is at a major disadvantage Putin does not know anything at all about economics. He is an idiot thief. The world’s leading blowhard. The latest 300k men being put into active duty will cause hyperinflation very quickly in Russia. They have to be paid or their muzzles will turn on Putin very quickly.

Putin has dug his own grave. Seeing him down will be my pleasure.

2 Likes

Two Russian-controlled regions in eastern Ukraine announced plans to hold referendums on joining Russia later this week and an ally of President Vladimir Putin said the votes would alter the geopolitical landscape in Moscow’s favour forever…
Any military operations mounted by the Ukraine in these areas will be claimed an attack on Mother Russia by Putin and might likely garner more domestic support for the war…
I wonder if any of the best & brightest in DC or the EU planned for this possible scenario? Or did they calculate that Putin would backdown & end the war? [Emphasis added.]

Tjscott0,

Even after more than half-a-year of warfare, experts in DC and the EU may not have fully accounted for the possibility of Putin attempting tactical nuclear warfare in Ukraine. One may reasonably assume that Russia already knows exactly how much long-term damage would be done to future Ukrainian cash crops, such as wheat, barley, and corn, in the event of radioactive contamination.

The 1986 nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl, approximately 100km north of Kyiv, provided Russian government scientists an incredibly large amount of real-world and real-time data about the potential effects of nuclear radiation on Moscow and environs, as well as on Ukraine’s then-Soviet/now-Russian territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

In 1986, Soviet (now Russian) scientists no doubt provided their government with a great deal of proprietary or inentionally concealed data related to the initial and immediately subsequent radiation releases coming from the Chernobyl reactor. There’s no way to judge exactly how much initial data was withheld from the International Energy Commission, which came in months and years later to assess the damage caused by the Chernobyl disaster.

Environmental Consequences of the Chernobyl Accident and their Remediation: Twenty Years of Experience - Report of the Chernobyl Forum Expert Group

https://www-pub.iaea.org/mtcd/publications/pdf/pub1239_web.p…

Vladimir Putin has at his beck and call a phalanx of nuclear weapons, weather, and environmental experts who can calculate the likely effects upon Moscow and other important Russian territory of his use of tactical nuclear weapons against Ukrainian and/or NATO targets. His standing team gives him an operational advantage over NATO or Ukrainian forces in that he can make tactical nuclear decisions according to pre-arranged plans, while NATO and Ukrainian personnel scramble to make risk and damage assessments after-the-fact.

Putin through proxies has announced his intention to enlarge Russian territory entitled “tactical nuclear defense” by means of farcical public referenda on Tuesday. This would provide Russia justification to utilize tactical nuclear weapons in response to NATO-backed Ukrainian military offensives in the “democratically annexed” territory in Eastern and Southern Ukraine.

The New York Times explains Putin’s maneuvering as follows:

…Russia moved to cement its grip on territory it occupies in eastern and southern Ukraine, as Kremlin proxies there announced plans on Tuesday for referendums on annexation to Russia, indicating a possible escalation of the war.

The Kremlin signaled that if Russia were to go forward with annexation — even if no other countries recognized it — any further military action by Ukraine in those regions could be seen as an attack on Russia itself, justifying any military response by the nation with the world’s largest nuclear arsenal.

“Encroaching on the territory of Russia is a crime, the commission of which allows you to use all the forces of self-defense,”, Dmitri A. Medvedev, the former Russian president and the vice chairman of Mr. Putin’s Security Council, wrote on the Telegram social network on Tuesday, describing the referendums as having “huge significance.” [Emphasis added.]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/20/world/europe/russia-annex…

American, European, and NATO leaders may not fully account for Russia’s advantage in scientific knowledge of radiatiological effects upon Ukrainian territory, Moscow weather patterns, and war-gaming scenarios involving Russian tactical nukes. Europe and the US may not fully account for the extent to which European and American voters might pressure their leaders to abandon Ukraine in fear of Russia’s possible use of tactical nukes in Western Ukraine, the Baltics, or areas where radiological damage upon NATO territory might occur.

Russian nuclear defense scientists clearly have a head-start on US and European scientists. This might give them a huge advantage in being able to provide real-time radiological impact analysis to Russian citizens while EU and US scientists would be scrambling to reaassure a terrified public screaming at NATO leaders to raise a white flag and retreat from Ukraine.

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“He offered Khrushchev a sop (removal of unnecessary missiles from Turkey) to prevent a nuclear war. Khrushchev could wave that concession to the Russian public & politburo”

I rather doubt that Russia saw first strike missiles in Turkey, virtually on their border, as inconsequential. Getting those removed was almost certainly the reason nuclear missiles were shipped to Cuba but not deployed.

Why else would Russia undertake such a provocative action?

1 Like

“He offered Khrushchev a sop (removal of unnecessary missiles from Turkey) to prevent a nuclear war. Khrushchev could wave that concession to the Russian public & politburo”

I rather doubt that Russia saw first strike missiles in Turkey, virtually on their border, as inconsequential. Getting those removed was almost certainly the reason nuclear missiles were shipped to Cuba but not deployed.

Why else would Russia undertake such a provocative action?

Those missiles in Turkey were considered by US as obsolete. JFK knew he had to give something to get something. The hawks were very resisyant i giving up those missile. JFK said in affect:“Yeah when the blood starts flowing & the Soviets grab Berlin that missile trade would very good but too late.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/10/22/t…
Ted Sorenson the fairytale teller of the age of Camelot during the JFK indicated that the missiles were obsolete and the US still had Polaris class subs with nukes-so no big loss.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/10/jfk-and-the-c…

Cuba was a client state that the US attempted to remove from the Soviet orbit (Bay of Pigs). Krushchev likely viewed JFK as a pantywaist because he held back overt US support for that invasion. And the fact the Cold War was in early days and the opponents were placing missiles anywhere they could. Because of that opinion Krushchev felt he could push through the blockade. Only at the last few seconds did the Soviet ships stop. The Soviets blinked.

And besides the removal of the missiles in Turkey, the Soviets got a promise that the US would never invade Cuba.

He offered Krushchev a sop (removal of unnecessary missiles from Turkey) to prevent a nuclear war. Khrushchev could wave that concession to the Russian public & politburo"

I rather doubt that Russia saw first strike missiles in Turkey, virtually on their border, as inconsequential. Getting those removed was almost certainly the reason nuclear missiles were shipped to Cuba but not deployed.

Why else would Russia undertake such a provocative action?

Those missiles in Turkey were considered by US as obsolete. JFK knew he had to give something to get something. The hawks were very resisyant i giving up those missile. JFK said in affect:“Yeah when the blood starts flowing & the Soviets grab Berlin that missile trade would very good but too late.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/10/22/t…
Ted Sorenson the fairytale teller of the age of Camelot during the JFK indicated that the missiles were obsolete and the US still had Polaris class subs with nukes-so no big loss.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/10/jfk-and-the-c…

Cuba was a client state that the US attempted to remove from the Soviet orbit (Bay of Pigs). Krushchev likely viewed JFK as a pantywaist because he held back overt US support for that invasion. And the fact the Cold War was in early days and the opponents were placing missiles anywhere they could. Because of that opinion Krushchev felt he could push through the blockade. Only at the last few seconds did the Soviet ships stop. The Soviets blinked.

And besides the removal of the missiles in Turkey, the Soviets got a promise that the US would never invade Cuba.

He offered Krushchev a sop (removal of unnecessary missiles from Turkey) to prevent a nuclear war. Khrushchev could wave that concession to the Russian public & politburo"

I rather doubt that Russia saw first strike missiles in Turkey, virtually on their border, as inconsequential. Getting those removed was almost certainly the reason nuclear missiles were shipped to Cuba but not deployed.

Why else would Russia undertake such a provocative action?

Those missiles in Turkey were considered by US as obsolete. JFK knew he had to give something to get something. The hawks were very resisyant i giving up those missile. JFK said in affect:“Yeah when the blood starts flowing & the Soviets grab Berlin that missile trade would very good but too late.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1987/10/22/t…
Ted Sorenson the fairytale teller of the age of Camelot during the JFK indicated that the missiles were obsolete and the US still had Polaris class subs with nukes-so no big loss.
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/10/jfk-and-the-c…

Cuba was a client state that the US attempted to remove from the Soviet orbit (Bay of Pigs). Krushchev likely viewed JFK as a pantywaist because he held back overt US support for that invasion. And the fact the Cold War was in early days and the opponents were placing missiles anywhere they could. Because of that opinion Krushchev felt he could push through the blockade. Only at the last few seconds did the Soviet ships stop. The Soviets blinked.

And besides the removal of the missiles in Turkey, the Soviets got a promise that the US would never invade Cuba.

LOL I keep getting an Oops messages from TMF. So I kept attempting to post my reply. And now it is there THREE times!

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This creates an odd problem for Putin though. Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts are partially controlled by Ukraine. So if they become part of Russia, then that means Ukraine is occupying Russian soil. So how does Putin reconcile a foreign power occupying part of his country? He doesn’t have the power to eject Ukraine from the Donbass.

Is it a problem? Or is it a feature?

It is possible that having Ukraine in those territories he would consider to then be part of Russia is just the excuse Putin needs to significantly escalate the war.

He might use that as justification for bombing various bits of Ukraine infrastructure - a nuclear power plant or two, perhaps?

Or for using tactical nukes on places like Kyiv.

I’m not entirely sure that’s the motivation for the elections. But I don’t think it’s too far fetched, either.

—Peter

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A very interesting brave young man live streaming an anti-war protest in St Petersburg in response to Putin’s speech last night.

Fascinating.

david fb

…and at times blood chilling terrifying.

david fb

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yes, I am an idiot.

Here is the link to this extraordinary live blog of the Petersburg demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdFZLhVAhTk

I caught it early by accident, and watched. This kid has done this before but never wracked up big numbers. As I was watching he suddenly noticed that tens of thousands of people were watching. It made him very happy (lots of love sent his way) but also I think alarmed him because he never came close to fame before and fame attracts attention, and attention is perilous.

david fb

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FB,

Wow - that brings back memories. The last time we wandered into St. Pete (2018 or 2019 IIRC), we didn’t realize that June 12th was “Russia Day” and we got cut off from the Metro station by a huge military parade and crowds worthy of NYC’s Macy’s parade. Whatever you think of Russia or Russians, doesn’t change the fact that St. Petersburg is one of the world’s prettiest cities.

We were scheduled to return a few months ago, but a war got in the way.

Jeff

2 Likes