OT: Hydrocarbonland

I just got back from a vacation in Minnesota. I grew up there, but I haven’t been back much in the past 20 years. It was shocking.

Living in Europe, you get the sense that most people, governments, companies are in agreement that climate change is real and cutting hydrocarbon usage is the right thing to do.

In Minnesota, not so much. If I had been in Louisiana or Texas or Wyoming where oil is big business and “climate change is a hoax” is a common refrain, I wouldn’t have been surprised. But Minnesota has almost no oil to speak of and one would think there would be some evidence of environmental consciousness.

Looking at it from an outsider’s perspective, it appears as though they are having a competition to see who can consume the largest volume of hydrocarbons. The majority of vehicles seem to be trucks and large SUVs, many of them pulling boats, jet skis, and quads. I get it, it’s the great wilderness and the toys are fun, but the scale has gone insane. I started calling it hydrocarbonland.

When I was a kid, a “big” outboard motor on a boat was 50 hp; now 200–350 hp seems to be the norm. The 50 hp motor will consume about 4 gallons per hour; the big motors 16 gallons per hour.

Over two weeks, we saw two Teslas (granted, MN is not a nationally representative sample location because electric cars are problematic when it is 40 below in the winter).

The main concern of people in hydrocarbonland was the price of gas. No one mentioned the fact that the rest of the USA was boiling and Europe is frying. It’s close to 100 F outside today in Luxembourg. It will probably be the hottest day ever recorded here. We came back to brown grass and water restrictions, as if we were living in CA or AZ.

And I will confess, I contributed to the consumption by paying a fishing guide for a day where we probably burned 20 gallons of fuel to catch our limit of walleye. They were delicious.

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It’s the same in northern Michigan. Large trucks/suv’s pulling large boats to the water.
Granted, the Great Lakes, Bays and inland lakes are gorgeous, and the cold water is very
refreshing. I sure don’t have any sympathy for boaters who complain about the price of fuel.
They are paying thru the nose, for a fun but completely voluntary very expensive hobby.

I have just as much fun on a kayak as I do on a powerboat. Large quantities of
alcohol are consumed during a boating day, on every boating excursion I’ve ever been on. And most other boaters are doing the same ( not all, of course ). We drink a little while kayaking, but a fraction of what the boaters are chugging down. The last few years, 1 boating day a summer is
enough for me, just don’t like baking in the sun for 6 hours or so.

To each their own, just wondering if the high cost of fuel is causing any power boaters to
rethink their hobby.

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I have just as much fun on a kayak as I do on a powerboat.

Much more fun in a kayak. Powerboats make way too much noise, which is not what I am looking for in nature.

IP

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trucks and large SUVs, many of them pulling boats, jet skis, and quads.

One issue with global warming is that even amongst believers, we think some-one else should take the hit and we can continue our lifestyle … it’s a human trait to be suspicious of “others”.

Egoistic people think they can fly in their private jets or trundle around in huge motor yachts because they derserve to.

The only slightly wealthy can now afford and enjoy huge SUVs … massive and wildly more numerous at least in Europe compared to 50 years ago

Africans think it’s all our fault even as they sow the seeds of complete catastrophe by pumping out more humans into the already unsustainable global population … while complaining it’s all our fault in industrialised countries … not mentioning that yes of course they and their numerous offspring all hope to drive SUVs and fly off to distant holidays soon too …

While the climate activists in Paris for example, found that the enthusiasm for solutions from all sorts of bright businessmen … was all just about making mobey from the situation …

We haven’t got our act together, and it seems any politician who tries to … doesn’t get re-elected …

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And I will confess, I contributed to the consumption by paying a fishing guide for a day where we probably burned 20 gallons of fuel…

We are all contributors to the problem, some more than others. But at least some of us are aware there IS a problem and are interested in trying to do something about it.

One issue with global warming is that even amongst believers, we think some-one else should take the hit and we can continue our lifestyle …

Precisely, NIMBY reloaded.

Also look at Germany’s green(!) economy minister currently buying additional fossile fuel in Qatar, and advocating putting coal power stations back online at home.

Each individual choice may make sense but it just means we‘ll likely be heading for the worst outcome… unless we desperately adopt a geo-engineering option once we found one viable with acceptable risk.

Are there companies out there building climatized, entirely roofed cities for the rich?

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Also look at Germany’s green(!) economy minister currently buying additional fossile fuel in Qatar, and advocating putting coal power stations back online at home.

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You are showing your ignorance of the reality facing Germany and other European countries. They need nat gas to make up for the Russian nat gas in the short term. They are not increasing the consumption of nat gas - they are just changing one supplier for another.

I do not understand your hatred of Germany. Why do keep posting false allegations about Germany. Are you related to Tim and Pete?

Let’s look at Switzerland’s energy problems:

Switzerland’s overall energy consumption in 2020 included:
Nuc 26%
Oil 34%
Gas 12%
Hydro 14%
Wind/solar 1%
Coal ~1%
Biomass 12%
https://www.iea.org/countries/switzerland


Under Switzerland’s Long-Term Climate Strategy, the county aims to achieve net zero carbon emissions by 2050. To achieve this, Switzerland will require large-scale investments in renewable energy and clean technologies.

Switzerland will decommission its nuclear power plants over time by taking them offline at the end of their current expected lifespan. (The first plant, Mühleberg, was taken offline in December 2019.) Switzerland is embedded in the European energy grid via its national grid manager (Swissgrid) which links Switzerland to France, Germany, Italy, and Austria. The European Union has warned that Switzerland’s privileged access to EU power markets may decline in future years following the breakdown of Swiss-EU talks on an Institutional Framework Agreement. This could necessitate additional power sector investment in Switzerland over time.

https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/switzerland-….

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we think some-one else should take the hit and we can continue our lifestyle … it’s a human trait to be suspicious of “others”.

That is the attitude I see all the time, UAians are entitled to everything they want, and at super cheap prices. Gas shortage the problem? “Others” need to pump more oil. I heard Sean Hannity bellow one evening “so what if Americans burn more oil than anyone else, we are more important than anyone else”. Exceptional shinyness writ large.

Steve

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We haven’t got our act together, and it seems any politician who tries to … doesn’t get re-elected …

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They do get relected in the US states like CA, NY, IL and New England, and In European nations.

Jaak

Germany’s green(!) economy minister currently buying additional fossile fuel in Qatar, and advocating putting coal power stations back online at home.

Because one or more of his predecessors had the BRILLIANT idea of going green by shutting down their nuclear power plants!

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Germany’s green(!) economy minister currently buying additional fossile fuel in Qatar, and advocating putting coal power stations back online at home.

Because one or more of his predecessors had the BRILLIANT idea of going green by shutting down their nuclear power plants!

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Some people are just ignorant about nuclear power plants!

Germany is not buying nuclear power plants or electricity from Qatar. German nuclear plants are only producing 6% of Germany’s energy consumption. But Germany uses nat gas for building and industrial heating. That is why the Germans want more Qatar nat gas. ot for electrical power generation.

Jaak

IP -

Powerboats make way too much noise, which is not what I am looking for in nature.

We live on a lake. Summertime is “woohoo time” for jet ski enthusiasts. The fisherman with their kayaks or shallow boats with electric silent motors are off the lake by 10AM when the jet ski crowd starts to arrive - mostly on weekends.

The boaters also like to enjoy the lake in summer evenings when the sun is setting and winds are calm and the lake is like glass.

There is a local By-Law that states that jet skis can use the lake from 10AM - 6PM and must stay 100’ from shore. Lately, there have been more and more jet skis that have been very close to shore and operating later and later in the evening. I just read on a local neighborhood FB site that one of the neighbors called the police to request that they enforce the local By-Laws.

The feedback on FB from a post that stated “the Police were sent to the lake for enforcement of by-laws - local resident called in to complain.” was amazing. Folks saying that who can justify times for jet skiing? Who are the local residents? Local residents are all farts…, etc.

Anyway, I agree that nature is much more enjoyable when calm and quiet. Unfortunately, not everyone thinks like us and there are folks who think tearing up the lake on a 2-cycle jet ski revving to what sounds like 10,000(?) RPMs is fun. To each their own.

I guess that’s progress…

'38Packard

I contributed to the consumption by paying a fishing guide for a day where we probably burned 20 gallons of fuel to catch our limit of walleye.

Yep, even those of us who have no doubt global warming is real burn hydrocarbons just living our lives. 7,000,000,000 lives burns a lot of hydrocarbons.

We live on a lake. Summertime is “woohoo time” for jet ski enthusiasts. The fisherman with their kayaks or shallow boats with electric silent motors are off the lake by 10AM when the jet ski crowd starts to arrive - mostly on weekends.

Our vacation home is on a river that has been running too low for kayaking, though swimming and fishing is still quite good. We have been kicking around the idea of buying on a lake, but I do fear the noise factor.

There are much worse problems to have.

IP

7,000,000,000 lives

You might want to update that number. We’re already over 7.9 billion, and looks like we’ll cross the 8 billion number late this year or early next year.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

–Peter

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Over two weeks, we saw two Teslas (granted, MN is not a nationally representative sample location because electric cars are problematic when it is 40 below in the winter).

Norway is the coldest country in Europe. Norway has the highest penetration of EVs in Europe (and the world).

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Norway is the coldest country in Europe.

Not true, but at any rate almost all of the people in Norway live along the coast and in the south. Looking at the plant hardiness zones, that means Zones 7 and 8.
www.gardenia.net/guide/european-hardiness-zones

Zone 7 in the US includes Virgina and Tennessee. Zone 8 includes South Carolina, Mississippi and Seattle.
www.brecks.com/zone_finder

DB2

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MarkR: Norway is the coldest country in Europe. Norway has the highest penetration of EVs in Europe (and the world).

We’ve had this discussion before? While inland Norway is cold, the coastal (inhabited) regions are very mild.

Also Norway has very high subsidies on EVs and very high taxes of gas burners.

Tim .

https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-Rainfall-Tem…

Climate and Average Weather in Norway
In Norway, the climate varies from the coastal to inland areas. In fact Norway has five different climate types. The coastal regions have a temperate oceanic climate with relatively mild winters and cooler summer months. Inland areas have a continental climate with colder winters, but a warmer summertime. Due to the warmth of the Gulf Stream Norway is a lot warmer than might be expected from its location.

Further north you will find a combination of three climate types. To a large extent, the interior has a cool continental climate, becoming a tundra climate and on some higher parts in central Norway an Alpine climate. In winter you can expect very low temperatures with even minus 40 degrees Celsius (-40 ° Fahrenheit). However the temperature changes quickly from day to day.

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We’ve had this discussion before? While inland Norway is cold, the coastal (inhabited) regions are very mild.

Not to mention the Brit troops you were on maneuvers with, who were using the same clothing they used on winter exercise in Norway. Frozen trooper delight.

Steve

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Not to mention the Brit troops you were on maneuvers with, who were using the same clothing they used on winter exercise in Norway. Frozen trooper delight.

Steve

Actually having learned their lesson in Wainwright Alberta the British MOD ordered 2000 sets of Canadian winter gear for their ACE Mob force. The Swedish and Finland border side are colder than the proverbial nuns … er stare? They don’t get the benefit of the Gulf Stream.

We (when I was PPCLI (Light Infantry) long ago helped train the SAS guys in winter warfare in Jasper area. Not nearly as cold as Wainwright but good enough for the purpose.

Since June 2022 we have ~ 2000 Canadian troops in Latvia.

Anymouse <NATO kind of guy for 37 years of his working days and welcomes the new guys>

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/lv-nato…

Latvia - NATO Membership
Shortly after regaining of the independence of Latvia, development of the Latvian defence system was launched and collaboration with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) was initiated. When reacting to the new security environment and the geo-political situation, on 20 December 1991, NATO founded the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (NACC) to collaborate with potential partners. Latvia also participated in the NACC foundation session, thus becoming a Member State of the forum.

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