OT? Students don't learn, fire the teacher

Even if Organic Chem was solely a weeding class, what you suggest would be a terrible thing to do for everyone concerned.

What a lot of people apparently don’t know is that what limits the number of physicians trained per year is the number of Residency positions, the great majority of which are funded by the federal government. This means there is a limited number of residencies available in any given year. This number dictates the number of students Medical Schools can accept every year. Since Med School admission rates are already on average only 7%, it is in everyone’s best interests to reduce the number of preMeds as early as possible in their undergrad years to those who have a plausible chance of getting accepted.

This schedule is pretty common during the “apprentice-years” for a number of careers, particularly those with high status, income, power, and/or responsibility. It is how much interns work who want to get into finance or big-time law firms, not to mention entrepreneurs who start businesses. Ask a grad student trying to get a Ph.D. in the sciences how much time in the lab they are spending and how much they are getting paid.

On the flip side one should also be more accepting of the times when these lesser trained happen to miss something serious. Easy to do in the abstract, but more difficult when it becomes personal.

3 Likes

Goofy,

The generalizations of “most of the time” are an opening for most people here to get badly blindsided when a problem comes into play. There is no most of the time. There is quality care which is hard to find.

Briefly: two things, either one of which I could expand into an essay.

First: trainee workload. DS2 - very much a MiniMe, the poor man - is currently doing his internal medicine residency thirty-five years after I did mine.

Much of it is the same, but what is most instructive to me are the differences.

First is the sensible work hour restrictions. The formula is complex (how many days in a row; how many hours per day; some other stuff wrt purely instructional hours e.g. practice board tests). Those are unequivocally better than my era, when no restrictions existed. Internship for me averaged 110 hours/week over the 52 weeks, easing only slightly in the ensuing two years. My personal most-ridiculous schedule: 24 hours on/24 hours off for a full month, working (with culpably little supervision) the emergency room of an inner city university hospital of a major metropolitan era. At only 84 hours/week (on paper, in reality more like 90+), it seemed great for the first few days…but then the physiologic reality of being up all night, every other night started to kick in. I did five months of this in three years.

Yes, it was dumb. And dangerous. And it was the era that brought the Libby Zion case, where an overwhelmed intern and his supervising resident caused the unnecessary death of a young woman in a major NYC teaching hospital. Once again, medicine couldn’t/wouldn’t police itself, so the justice system and multimillion-dollar lawsuits were needed to get the policy-makers’ attention.

I’m less than fully enthusiastic about the work limits now set on even senior trainees, because that’s not how the world works. Barring the few fields where there are few truly urgent cases (think: dermatology), in cardiology, oncology, nephrology, ob/gyn, emergency, critical care, etc etc etc there are just going to be random days where the load is two standard deviations above average. While a third-year medical student just starting on the wards is best capped at 2-3 patients at a time, and newly minted interns probably shouldn’t have more than, oh, 5-6 existing patients plus 2-3 admissions per shift - the senior trainees should have real-life exposure to those full moons when the wheels fall off, the cavalry isn’t coming, and triaging, time efficiency and a sleepless night are critical to getting the job done.

But overall: DS2 experience much more appropriate in 2022 than was mine during the Reagan administration.

My second thesis: I actually have a pretty good idea what in a perfect world, driven by logic, should supplant organic chemistry as the default undergraduate weed-out.

(Parenthetically: I did a brief internet search and it looks like around fifty US medical schools no longer require O-chem, or around 25%. I mean, if you’re an undergrad and make the decision to get in the high-stakes poker game where everyone else is playing from a 52-card deck while yours has 39, then God be with you. Complicating this is that many of these are state schools which just don’t take out-of-state applicants. If you’re a resident of the great state of WX, and the Univ of WX Med school requires O-chem, then)

OK, out of time. Very briefly: my O-chem replacement concept. The necessity is that of a complex, highly technical set of closely interrelated subjects which lends itself to testable hypotheses…but is necessary for the intelligent practice of 21st century medicine, which O-chem is not (and truly ever was. Biochem should have supplanted O-chem as a premed weeding course around 1980).

And I’m not in favor of eliminating organic chemistry entirely. As I wrote somewhere above, ten instructional hours or so should be plenty for an MD

My proposed replacement thesis statement: “The Wacky World That Nucleic Acids Have Wrought”, or (more sophisticated): “A Comprehensive Survey of Information Transfer in Biologic Systems”

You start with Mendelian genetics and Punnett squares. That takes a day. Then you quickly move on to translation, transcription; up- and -down-regulation; gene transfer. A moderate survey of different organisms (viruses, fungi, prions, even intuitively common things like corn) are instructive as to what is essential to life, and why different trees ‘chose’ differing strategies.

You move on to the modeling of 3D protein structures (which in the final analysis are dictated by physical chemistry meeting a certain nucleic acid sequence) and implications for drug design - necessarily including some pathologic variants (e.g., oncogenes)

Yes, it’s hard science - and the computer modeling is just beginning. It may not lend itself to a lab section as O-chem, but, uh, so?

The course has room for enormous breadth, and could be as complex as the university chose to make it. But the graduate would be facile with, well, Life.

My hypothetical course finishes with memes - the original Dawkins variety, where the whole purpose of life becomes the transmission of information across generations.

I’d rather my doc - or any well-educated biologic scientist - be capable of handling and be well-versed in the methods, vagaries, adaptations, errors than in Kekule’s snake or the Grignard reaction.

/rant

  • sutton
6 Likes

While I understand where you are coming from, I think it would be a mistake to require courses specialized for PreMeds. The premed concentration is a popular choice of incoming freshmen who like STEM but are otherwise uncertain of their major. A large percentage of freshman premeds end up in a different career path by their junior year, though most typically stay in the sciences. The last thing you want is for these students to have to stay an extra year or two because their specialized premed courses are not adequate for other majors.

The standard recommended premed curriculum during the first two years include general chemistry, organic chemistry, general biology, physics, and calculus. These courses also happen to count for most other majors in the life sciences and chemistry, which is relevant since most premeds are biology majors. This means that one-time premeds who found medicine not to be their calling are still on track to graduate on time with a science degree.

I think much of the disagreement here stems from whether one perceives physicians to be technicians or scientists. I get the feeling that the general public tends to see the practice of medicine as a trade where the physician only needs to know techniques. This is analogous to an auto mechanic where only practical knowledge of the car is needed. Academics tend to see MDs as scientists who have a role not just in practicing medicine but also in developing medicine. This is akin to an automotive engineer who not only needs to understand the car, but also have knowledge in physics and math.

If MDs are scientists, then one can see the rationale for med schools requiring education in the fundamental fields of the life sciences.

2 Likes

Physicians do need some background in chemistry. They can’t regard chemical names as a foreign language. They need to know something about metabolism and biochemistry.

Eliminating chemistry from the curriculum is a bad idea. But how much time they should spend in chemistry courses is a reasonable debate.

1 Like

What a bunch of curmudgeons. :slight_smile:

Of course young adults are different than us old schoolers. They grew up with the world’s knowledge in their palm.

And they’ll complain about the young whippersnappers because they’ll have chips implanted in them so they won’t have to even have to pull a phone out of their pockets or use their digits! 1,367 x 55,042? Easy peasy. 75,242,414 (at least that’s what my phone tells me).

Drive a car? How quaint. Want to quote a Shakespeare sonnet? No prob.

Of course, the successful people will require more than just having facts at their finger tips, as it has always been.

It’s not the smarts, it’s the intelligence. And more importantly, how you utilize your intelligence.

Things are accelerating at an exponential rate. Exciting times we live in, and scary.

Sometimes the light’s all shinin’ on me.
Other times, I can barely see.

Not to worry, though. If the UAP don’t get you then the AAI will. Or the thunder. I forget which.

AW

3 Likes

Yes, true.

One of the interesting things about this story was the context: I agree with much of Wendy’s opinions in her OP. In this specific case, though, NYU fired the ‘semi-retired’ (many of us now) professor in reaction to a student petition, which itself did not call for his firing. I heard an NPR story on this last week that brought up the fact that this particular professor was condescending and dismissive to his students and didn’t bother to clarify much in the class. The reporter asked why students even took the class and, of course, the answer was that it was a pre-med requirement (that we’ve talked about here a lot) and they didn’t have any options. Why, then, did these students not take OC with another professor? Because they were already booked up! This is the thing: NYU had a few other professors teaching an OC section that very few students had problems with, but those classes filled up and they were stuck with Prof. Jones.

I’m not sure “just get over it” is the right response to these students and saying they are overly coddled just because they had trouble with one out of many, many professors at NYU. Sure, many of them are coddled, but I’m not sure this is the best story to show that.

But it all makes for good memes.

Pete

4 Likes

This story reminds me of an amusing incident when I was working on my Ph.D. There was a visiting professor, most recently from Oxford teaching a seminar on The Reconstruction of Fossil Hominid Behavior. It was quite large for a seminar, maybe 25 students. One’s grade depended entirely on a paper which one wrote. At the time, a Harvard grad student expected to get an A or B, maybe a C if they had really slacked off, and a D was a invitation to quit and go elsewhere. This professor was used to a different standard and handed out a couple of Fs, a few Ds, a bunch of Cs, something like 5 Bs, and 2 As. The students were outraged and went to the department head to get the grades changed … he just didn’t understand how things were done here. But, said head, pointed out that two people got As, so it was quite possible to do well, so nothing was changed.

Yes, I was one of the As and I had worked extraordinarily hard on the paper. It had more citations than any prior or subsequent paper I have done. And, it really greased my relationship with my dissertation advisor.

1 Like

[quote=“tamhas, post:28, topic:77352”]
But, said head, pointed out that two people got As, so it was quite possible to do well[/quote]

Said Head is a bamboozler. It does not say that. That’s just skillful word usage meant to tell people to STFU and go away. It could be an indication that the fix is always in and this is just the cover story. That’s what it might be saying.

The head of the Biological Anthropology section was W.W. Howells, one of the most distinguished men in the field. I am sure that his reaction had a lot to do with the students overreacting to the grade. One’s grades were simply not that important in the context of the Ph.D. program unless a pattern of bad work indicated that one was just not cut out for the scholarship the place required. What mattered was the dissertation itself.

As it happens, I got a D in another course. It was an odd course addressed at both senior undergrads and graduate students. The grad students had to do a research paper in addition to their other work. It turned out that the project on which I was going to do my paper became infeasible late in the term and so I took an Incomplete until I could come up with something else. In the fall term, I was taking a seminar in multivariate analysis, so I went to the professor and asked if he had a data set that he would like me to slice and dice using all the tools we were going to cover in the seminar. He was tickled and I set of with this data set of blood and physical measurement data from a three village tribe in the Solomon Islands. At the end, I wrote him a paper which concluded that basically there was nothing interesting going on in that data … might be something comparing to other data, but not in that specific group. He didn’t like me much, so he gave me a D, even though my class work was at a high level. Other professors knew the story and laughed, so the grade was never an issue.

2 Likes

I think it’s only fair to point out that you don’t know if it was an issue because no one would have told you. I say this because the kids complaining about the organic chemistry course did rely on that grade to continue their higher education, and it’s unlikely that any medical school would reach out to them and say “Well, it was a close call and you would have made it except for that D in organic chemistry.”

To quote that great philosopher and war criminal Donald Rumsfeld, “you don’t know what you don’t know.”

2 Likes

Might be a reason not to be a doctor? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

1 Like

There is a difference between having D’s, plural, on your transcript as an undergraduate and trying to get into a post-graduate program and having a D singular on your transcript as a student in a Ph.D. program.

2 Likes

i have found that 1st or 2nd generation here are hungry to learn and succeed. my friends that farm have told me that once you get 3 generations off the farm their work ethic is greatly diminished.

3 Likes