Yes. Why feed the paranoia types by keeping the data a big mystic secret while swearing there’s nothing to see there? This is not like a criminal investigation where releasing every single detail could actually damage a case. The deal is done. Get it out there. I have said here many times, and it is one of my cynical observations of human behavior since I was a child: The Truth is never sufficiently self-serving. Its not enough to have The Truth on your side. You have to lie, even about The Truth, even when it is on your side, or it’s not good enough. That’s why they don’t want to release it. The Truth here I suspect is not the horror story as the anti’s are hoping it is. But it’s not as “All Hail the Mighty Mighty Science Perfect and Immutable!” as the Science ex Machina types really want people to think it is.
I think both sides realize that and are engaging in a mutual-assured-destruction play. Each knowing the data ain’t going anywhere.
Pretty much because all data is messy. Releasing raw data to a bunch of morons will result in a deluge of moronic observations, which will be true but irrelevant. All the hubbub will drown out any actual conclusions by experts who understand what they’re looking at and how to interpret it.
And those who think that “citizen journalists” and “citizen epidemiologists” and “citizen doctors” should be able to fully participate in scientific debate, well, they really ought to be consigned to a small corner of Truth Social where they can validate each other’s moronic opinions.
I realize all that. As Pearls before swine for the hoi palloi and the media just wants “the story”, whatever they’ve determined it should be. I believe the poster who was advocating the release of data said he wanted it reviewed and vetted by people who can actually read and understand it. (Did I get that right?) Then release that report. Yes, just releasing data, all technical all proprietary and therefor over the heads of most people no matter how well-educated, motivated to understand, and earnest acting they might be, is not going to solve the problem.
Now even that won’t convince everybody. You can lead a horse to water … and other metaphors. They are incorrigible. But hey, how about the rest of us? I am not anti-vax or anti science despite what I know I’ve led some people here to believe. I have all my shots and will get more if needed. But don’t blow smoke and tell me it’s raining. Why would somebody want to do that…? I wonder…?
Not a reply directed at you as an individual, Ralph but rather the concept of letting society discuss. It sounds a reasonable idea on first blush, of course, but to be honest “society” in general isn’t equipped to evaluate either whatever data are available or which experts are likely to provide the reassurances they want.
I certainly include myself here, BTW…but at least I’m aware of that fact even though I knew of of the frequent misrepresentations of the pundit on the original YouTube vid in this thread, am aware of the impact of a senior author on the direction of a study (or, come to that, what a senior author actually is) and can name a bunch of virologists with expertise in the study of RNA viruses who can and do quite frequently discuss study data in a public forum and present it in an understandable way. Without recourse to Wikipedia to fill the immediate gap.
Does anyone even use TWiV to assist in opinion forming?
Timing is everything. There was discussing it when it mattered and people were easily lied to into not getting vaccinated. There is talking about it now when for the vast majority of people a bad cold or the flu is a bigger pain.
There is talking about it and then ignoring the long covid folks. The total of long covid cases are still rising. There is talking about it still not getting vaccinated and taking potentially a bigger risk of being a long covid patient.
But overall talking about is going to happen in society.
The more important thing is lying about about it happens even more. Think that over. Because it is not just getting information and discussing it.
The snake oil salesmen have just kept trucking.
Imagine being a very worthless doctor and setting up a vitamin business with recommendations. Imagine making your first million because you found a lot of suckers out there. That is the goal for those who are lying.
We can say Pfizer made billions. That is not the point.
The liars were in it individually for millions.
Billions v millions and those wanting to tap into it. The snake oil salesmen cost lives. It is not just lying.
Now if you have read this far, I am not against a public discussion. I am for framing the motives of the snake oil salesmen. Lets have the full discussion. Not just the part where you think the FDA is hiding this because the snake oil salesmen make such a claim.
The data is worthless in that study. Much of it has nothing to do with the vaccine. Some conspiracy if you think you have a scientific mind that should have a full discussion of…the facts. If you think you should have a full discussion of the facts then stop reading the snake oil salesmen.
amazing how some comedians cut thru the malarkey and speak the truth ! The late, great George Karlin was another one who really cut to the chase on societal issues. I’ve been asking a few antivaxers that I come in contact with “where did you study medicine at, and for how long ?” When they come back with " I watched so and so on utube, I ask them where did the utuber study medicine at, and for how long ?" It doesn’t change their opinion, but it lets them know in a polite way that I’m not interested in their medical opinion on viruses.
As you may have fathomed, Dara isn’t just any old comedian. As he hinted (with the references to being a numbers dweeb andthe"hard" sciences like physics) he’s a physicist and graduate of University College, Dublin. His wife is a physician…an OB/GYN, I think. Manifestly a couple with probably
pretty decent critical thinking skills between the two of them.
I was a little late in discovering Dara (on one of my trips back to England) but this skit has quickly become one of my faves emphasising, as it does, the two adages that I like to remnd myself of from time to time…
That you don’t have to know much to think you know enough…but a heck of a lot to realise you don’t, and …
It ain’t so much what you don’t know that gets you into trouble … but what you know that JUST AIN’T SO
Virology and vaccinology are both areas that demonstrate these really well with all manner of folk ready to step in and take advantage of that fact. Problem is with encouraging the open discussion that folk imagine they’re asking for is that if such wishful thinking were indulged, there’d be one big opportunity cost that’s already been demonstrated WRT the non relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. You’d think that after all this time and with the originator of the whole debacle being shown as a fraud and liar who fabricated data, the issue would be dead in the water. You’d be wrong.
In an effort to appease the anti vaxx critics, there’ve been multiple studies published in high impact journals…from large databases and analysed by multiple experts in the field … all designed to tease out any possible link between the two (tease out any link…not debunk or deliberately refute but tease out any link) Such a link still hasn’t been detected. Regardless, it’s never enough to whack that anti vaxx mole. This all consumes countless tens of thousands of dollars, pounds, kroner, euros etc of precious research funding that could be better spent on any other aspect of autism than this bovine steatorrhea.
I agree being an expert on medicine when you are not trained at all becomes a horrific waste of resources…IF you generic wont listen to those who are experts.
I have a severe auditory problem. I need to focus on listening. It amazes me endlessly how many people with no auditory problems whatsoever do not listen.
Coming into a message board with conspiracies about the FDA etc…is not listening…unless the resource is a complete liar. Listening to liars is not listening. Cant say it more plainly than that.
Yep you did.
In a world where government officials inside trade & collude with businesses
And a vast majority of field grade generals & admirals are hired by defense industry to lobby their former colleagues
Former Congress critters retire/lose their seat & become lobbyists to shill for businesses
And the funding of FDA by pharmaceutical industry & close association of FDA leaders to that industry causes concern
the FDA has effectively shifted its focus from patients or consumers to private companies as the primary beneficiaries of drug approval. There have been reports that high level FDA officials–because of pressure, often disregard findings of the reviewers they employ when these negatively impact drug approval.
@tjscott0 - No need to proofread 3X any longer!! Easy to edit your post on this new platform. Just go to the original post and hit the pencil icon to edit, then save your changes. Hope that helps!
The report in the first link further up top was very plainly citing all problematic health outcomes. Most of them were not vaccine related. Proving things at all from the report was not possible. That has nothing to do with fraud or not fraud at the FDA. You are discussing things that are not do not pertain to the report directly.
Yep nothing can be prove we do not the data, which was paid for the taxpayer, necessary to prove anything.
We do know in past the FDA has approved medicines that later had to be withdrawn.
And we don’t know why the data is being held up or the motivation of the government officials in control of the data.
We do have incidents of federal employees & former government employees in the FDA & other departments cozying up to businesses for financial gain.
The stonewalling of the data & incidents of corruption within our government gives the impression of something nefarious is going on.
Let’s release the data to see where the chips fall.
That is not the issue at all. Regardless of whether we have the data or not. The study is flawed completely. There is no causality or correlation in the study to the vaccines. It is a list of health events in people who have been vaccinated. That list is far too extensive with no other backing information on what was caused by the vaccine.
After that you are just throwing things out there. Not sure you get that.
It is like saying the sky is blue. Now lets discuss 500 other things and see what is related to the sky being blue. The problem is we never make any relationship between the sky and the 500 things except it is during the period we looked up at the sky.
That is not the issue at all. Regardless of whether we have the data or not. The study is flawed completely.
No the issue is the willingness to accept secrecy within our government. As citizens we have the right to know the level of adverse reactions of the vaccine was when approved by our government. 1)the FDA, Moderna, & Pfizer wished to keep all data secret for 75 years! They lost in court & release some data. Robert M Kaplan is an Emeritus Distinguished Professor at the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health and an Adjunct Professor of Medicine at Stanford University’s Clinical Excellence wrote “ Regrettably, our analysis was hindered by an addressable problem: The individual level data that could conQrm or refute our analysis have not been made public. For example, we would have greater conQdence in our conclusions if we knew how often individuals experienced multiple serious adverse events. PQzer, Moderna and the FDA have these data, but have kept them hidden from public view.
So yes the study is flawed. One of the participants indicates that it is because of withheld data. So release the data. These researchers/experts are not be trusted? Fine. Surely an independent gold standard research/expert panel can be found to review all the data laying to rest the accusation.
2)In the past secrecy within our government/no need to know has caused blowback & revealed nefarious actions of our government.
Seems it was released. There has been peer review or in other words independent review. The study is deeply flawed as you are now admitting.
The rest of your going-ons is blogger salesmanship.
Do you want to discuss blogger salesmanship? Hyping up crazy comments to get readers as the world ends? In other words conspiracies about not getting the truth? And when something is published as this was still not getting the truth? Because no matter what is said or reported no one ever gets the truth?
Or do you want to move the ball forward and discuss how the study simply was deeply flawed and not worth using?
Perceptions some times matter. Other times there are a lot of extra perceptions. That is where the snake oil salesmen find suckers to make money off of. Even if you spend a lot of time reading a blog the advertisers will pay the blogger better. It is a cheap industry but individuals can or want to make millions of dollars selling you.
No use pointing at Pfizer’s billions that is not the issue in any of this. That perception is set up by the snake oil salesmen to use you.
Is pharma trustworthy? Not at all. A doctor who knowing good from bad medicine is critical. I said a lot on that last week.
It does not take pharma doing studies or reporting to the FDA to make them untrustworthy. Pharma is just very untrustworthy. Always has been…two lobster dinners for the MDs that want them. Dad always called those doctors whores.
Just when you think you can’t read any more nitwittery on the Covid vaccines, you find out you’re wrong.
I’ve been checking on the progress of poor Damar Hamlin and discovered the Just Asking Questions crowd can’t leave this “gift” alone…
Did you ever?
I have no doubt that not a doctor John Campbell will be including commentary on this sometime soon…speculating on Mr Hamlin’s vaccination status and whether the person who gave it “aspirated” (first clue that he was lurching towards the strange when he made this a crusade)
Mercola is another one. He "deleted’ his stuff losing his “freedom of speech”.
I guess he was worried about losing his medical license but does not understand you can not do a vanilla delete to wipe things from the internet. Perhaps unplugging the server would work. But then the suckers cant find you. LOL
