Some help with CGNX

When it comes to financial analysis, it’s not the math, and it’s not the process, it’s separating the relevant from the irrelevant that gives me heartburn. For sure, there’s more numerical data than we need. And especially when it comes to ratios and various derivatives it can easily make your (I mean my) eyes glaze over. This is one of the reasons I like Saul’s approach. Of course it’s fallible and of course it’s not everything - but given the amount of numerical data I believe that he suggests the most informative things to look at are earnings and price. In my opinion, Saul’s investing strategy is far more complex and subtle than looking at two financial indicators. He obviously employs techniques which are not quantitative and quite possible defy description. I think intuition plays a larger role than even Saul is able to define.

As BrittleRock so nicely put it, there’s a question of intuition here, and I recently started looking a Cognex again (CGNX). It’s a MF SA rec from 2011 but I was in it before that and then out again. Here’s the story. They are probably the leader in machine vision, making elegant and very exacting systems. Can’t miss, right? A company of the future. Re-recommended late last spring.

Here are Revenues
2012: xx xx 80 82 =
2013: 82 86 91 96 = 353
2014: 91 109 169 117 = 486

A slow and steady grower until 3rd quarter of 2014.

Here are earnings:
2012: 20 24 21 20 = 85
2013: 21 21 25 25 = 92
2014: 24 32 59 33 = 148

Same thing. Practically stationary in 2012 and 2013, and then the big bulge in third quarter of 2014. So what happened? They got a huge $60 million order from a mystery customer that turned out to be Apple. But it’s a one time deal. They shipped it out. There’s no service contract, or currently any repeat business. Take that $60 million out of the third quarter, and you have $109 million, flat with the quarter before. Even with that big bulge, earnings were $1.48, and with a price of $50, they have a PE of 34. Their revenue and earnings will probably be close to flat, if not down, this year, without the $60 million order, unless they get some other large orders (which may possibly be in the works but…

Here are some clippings from the last conference call:

For the Mar quarter, we expect revenue of between $108 million and $111 million. This range represents growth of 19% to 22% year-on-year, even with an expected unfavorable forex impact from a stronger U.S. dollar. Gross margin is expected to be in the mid-70% range. Operating expenses are expected to increase by up to 6% from Q4. (We’re gearing the organization for a higher level of revenue expected in subsequent quarters. In addition, we see an increase in stock option expense and incremental fees related to our patent lawsuits against Microscan). The effective tax rate is expected to be 19%, excluding discrete tax items.

We do have some large customer opportunities that we’re looking to execute on and that we think can bring substantial revenues to the business in subsequent quarters. And in addition to that, we are bringing a lot of important new products to market, and obviously, investing in getting those out of the door and the sales force supplied with them as part of what we need to do to sustain significant growth we see in factory automation. And I’ll just go back to what I said earlier about large opportunities. I think we see those coming both in consumer electronics, but also in logistics and gearing up our organization to support those are expenses we’re taking now and we expect to see significant revenue come in future quarters.

Overall, we expect revenue to grow faster than expenses over the year, but not in the first quarter as I told you in the guidance. Clearly, we expect to see revenue grow as we move through the year. Traditionally, the first quarter is the lowest revenue quarter at Cognex and we expect that to be the case this year as well. So, revenue growing faster than expenses, gross margins in the mid-70s, I think that can kind of give you a sense of where we expect things to land as the year goes forward. There’s going to be headwind from currency obviously and I think it’s too early to speculate about the big order volume or timing of big orders in logistics and electronics.

As we look across our markets, we see growth in almost every market that we serve, with the exception of semi.

My thoughts: It all sounds good BUT:
I don’t see ANY recurring income. Even with the big $60 million sale to Apple, it’s been here and gone, and there’s no follow-on revenue.

They pay out an ENORMOUS amount of stock options, and then buy back stock with stockholder money to keep the stock count stable.

They may get more big orders but even if they do, it’s real short term. Each will ship in a quarter or so, and then it’s find another.

They don’t sell usually to end customers, but to OEM’s who package their stuff into automation systems. Often the end user companies don’t even know it’s Cognex equipment. Has never heard of Cognex. There’s no brand recognition.

They are at a 34 PE due to enthusiasm about the Apple order but that’s already gone. “What can you do for me today?” as the expression goes. Without another big order, I’d think earnings will be flat to down.

Anybody into this stock and have opinions? I’d love to hear them.

Saul

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I was in CGNX for a little over a year and sold in spring of 2012 for a modest gain. Ended up selling because I didn’t like the growth prospect anymore. The machine vision market is estimated to grow between 9-13% CAGR until 2020. I figured CGNX being a leader in the space already would have difficulty taking a lot of market share or have to grow by aquisition to do better than that. The stock has continued to go up since I sold of course.

Here’s one of the links I came across
http://www.marketsandmarkets.com/PressReleases/machine-visio…

Ray

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I’m not in the stock, so maybe you won’t love hearing from me.

But as intrigued as I am with their technology (coming from the aerospace industry, I’m very intrigued), I just don’t see a big investment opportunity with this company, despite TMF enthusiasm.

As you noted with Apple, they sell a bunch of equipment or even an integrated system and then they’re done with that customer. Maybe a few maintenance upgrades will follow on, but there’s no “razor and blade” story here.

So, they have to keep selling to new customers, because the ones who already bought have no motivation to buy again - unless they open a new plant or something, but basically every sale is a done deal. Little opportunity for repeat business, virtually no follow-on sales of disposable components.

This is one tough business to grow.

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I was in CGNX for a little over a year and sold in spring of 2012 for a modest gain. Ended up selling because I didn’t like the growth prospect anymore. The machine vision market is estimated to grow between 9-13% CAGR until 2020. I figured CGNX being a leader in the space already would have difficulty taking a lot of market share or have to grow by aquisition to do better than that. The stock has continued to go up since I sold of course.

As intrigued as I am with their technology (coming from the aerospace industry, I’m very intrigued), I just don’t see a big investment opportunity with this company, despite TMF enthusiasm. As you noted with the sale to Apple, they sell a bunch of equipment or even an integrated system and then they’re done with that customer. Maybe a few maintenance upgrades will follow on, but there’s no “razor and blade” story here. So, they have to keep selling to new customers, because the ones who already bought have no motivation to buy again - unless they open a new plant or something, but basically every sale is a done deal. Little opportunity for repeat business, virtually no follow-on sales of disposable components. This is one tough business to grow.

Thanks Ray and Brittlerock. You are seeing it just the way I am. It’s a fascinating company, with intriguing technology, and a leader in its field, but “one tough business to grow”. Their machines are good and don’t break down. They are not hard to maintain. There’s no need for service or replacement parts or disposable components. They mostly sell through OEM’s so they are anonymous to the end users and don’t usually even interact with the end users. So they have NO MOAT except for good technology, so they have to keep running as hard as they can to stay in the same place. And they give out a large part of their earnings in stock options, which they then have to buy back the stock. This makes it a good place to work, but a less good place to invest. And they are at a relatively high PE for a company that is not inherently a fast grower.

I really wanted to invest in this company because of the technology, but every time I look at it I can’t bring myself to do it. If anyone is invested and has a positive outlook, I’d love to hear it.

Saul

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I am long CGNX (0$.5%), but only as following MF recommendations. This thread prompted a look at the 10-K. I gleaned the following numbers which may provide some “bull” support:

The one company concentration was, as you’ve noted 14% in 2014. Revenue for 2014 was up 37%. The once customer would be $68 million… That leaves 70 million of increase, almost 20% increase without that one big customer.
In 2014 only 6% of revenue came from electronics and semiconductor. Don’t know how they categorize Apple. Note that Cognex does not sell to end users, at least not necessarily. They sell to systems integrators so the 14% single customer might not be Apple or only Apple.
Geographic data, U.S. 30%,Europe 42%, Japan 9%, remainder 19%. They have targeted China since about 2012 (?) and have a wholly owned entity in Shanghai since 2010, can deal in Yuan. Maybe there is growth potential in China. (I hate to say that as “China” makes me think, “Yeah, sure”.)
But seems there is a lot of manufacturing volume that is untapped by Cognex with only 19% of sales outside of US, Europe and Japan.
Not to say CGNX, the stock, hasn’t gone too far too fast.

KC

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Thanks KC for giving a different view.

so the 14% single customer might not be Apple or only Apple.
They identified them as Apple in the 10K.

That leaves 70 million of increase, almost 20% increase without that one big customer.
That’s definitely a positive.

Not to say CGNX, the stock, hasn’t gone too far too fast.
That’s the high PE on a relatively slow growing stock.

Hard to decide, but I’m leaning against.

Saul

Geez, they had to bury that Apple reference on page 2. :slight_smile:

KC

First, some background about my time with CGNX - well it was short! Entered Jan in mid 30s, sold March in mid 40s, pocketing a 30% return.

You are seeing it just the way I am. It’s a fascinating company, with intriguing technology, and a leader in its field, but “one tough business to grow”

@Saul and others - the machine vision sector is going to be an industry changer just like IoT. Of course that would take decades or longer to play out. Meanwhile, there will be mergers, acquisitions, partnerships and so on.

So my thoughts for the time ahead is:

  • Adopt the invest in thirds approach (but customize it). Buy a small starter position around low 40s; Add twice more if it drop to low 30s; Add same amount of stock as the starter if the market drops like Oct-Nov last year.
  • The first starter position would be my long term hold. I wouldn’t sell this unless my investment thesis changes (long time demand and need for machine vision). I don’t see how that can change, but stranger things have happened.
  • My subsequent additions would be more trading positions. Something I would evaluate on a continuous basis whether to trade or keep. The idea would be I’d never sell for a loss, unless like before, the investment thesis changes.

I believe in companies like this, there is a lot of benefit to holding them long term, like decades not years. But there is also short term trading opportunities. I want to have a little bit of both.

“So they have NO MOAT except for good technology” - err, what would you say about Intel(INTC)? Not comparing apples to steak, but good technology itself is a moat isn’t it? As for the continuous running part - that’s true with any tech or e-commerce company. If they don’t run, they are done!

@Sual - thanks for the Apple update, it wasn’t something I knew.

regards,
Ani.

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