Tax Planning For EV Tax Credits

A level 2 charger is just a 40 amp outlet, just like an electric clothes dryer.

I can only share what I know. The installers were actually at his home and told him it would cost thousands of dollars. It is an older (i.e. historic) home so perhaps it lacks newer wiring. IIRC, it was going to cost him over 5 grand to have his home rewired for a lvl 2. My guess is that his circuit breaker was not rated for at least 50 amps.

Apparently installation costs can indeed vary widely:

https://www.cars.com/articles/what-it-cost-to-outfit-six-hom…

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It could be Hawkwin that his panel didn’t have enough capacity for another 40 amps so he would need to upgrade the panel. All of this is not hard to do but some people feel intimidated by power. If it was me I would get a permit to change out the panel, run the 40 amp circuit myself, and have it all done for less than a 1000 dollars. Probably around 500 dollars. With the library and youtube all of this is easy and for those that are scared about fires, the permit has the city come in and make sure you did the job correctly. But for a 40 amp service it is a direct connection from the panel to the spot you want the connection.

Andy

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“I can only share what I know. The installers were actually at his home and told him it would cost thousands of dollars. It is an older (i.e. historic) home so perhaps it lacks newer wiring. IIRC, it was going to cost him over 5 grand to have his home rewired for a lvl 2. My guess is that his circuit breaker was not rated for at least 50 amps.”

A lot of older houses built before 1970 or so probably have 60 amp service or less.

Some of the 100 year old houses probably even less. There weren’t electric dryers or even washing machines back then, nor toasters. Some still probably have ‘tube and wire’ wiring behind uninsulated plaster walls, fuse boxes located in a closet, half a dozen light bulbs in the house and that’s about it.

Those will require new service entrance and likely replace fuse box, and half house wiring to bring it up to code.

A lot of older ‘row houses’ probably in same boat.

If you have a ‘car port’ instead of a garage, it might be a haul to where the service entrance is located -

Now, in TX, the service entrance is usually on the side of the house - sometimes with circuit breaker box in the garage - sometimes not.

So your installation costs might vary.

I’ve got 325amp service entrance…but every breaker spot is filled - so I’ll need an aux box if I go EV…

Some locations require ‘Romex’ (shielded wire) by code.

t

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"If it was me I would get a permit to change out the panel, run the 40 amp circuit myself, and have it all done for less than a 1000 dollars. Probably around 500 dollars. With the library and youtube all of this is easy and for those that are scared about fires, the permit has the city come in and make sure you did the job correctly. "

In TX and most ‘union heavy’ states, you need a Master Electrician to sign off on the job…you can’t do it yourself on a project this big. Or you pay the Master Electrician $500 to inspect your work and sign off on it, IF he will even do that.

Plus, of course, the power company needs to run a heavier wire, and YOU have to run a heavier wire to code from the box to where the power company connects. If it is underground, that is a major problem, right?

There are all sorts of ‘gotchas’ in the Electrical Code too that you can miss. My dad replaced a fuse box with circuit breaker box. Had 5 inches of service entrance wire in the house from where it came through the basement wall to the top of the box. Rejected. Code only allows 4 inches inside. Had to move entire box up 1 inch. Duh! Back in NJ in the 1960s.

He did wire the entire small summer house he built - and passed code. Not as fussy an inspector and he did a good job.

t

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“In TX and most ‘union heavy’ states, you need a Master Electrician to sign off on the job…you can’t do it yourself on a project this big. Or you pay the Master Electrician $500 to inspect your work and sign off on it, IF he will even do that.”

T you really need to know the laws in your state. That is completely incorrect. Even California, one of the strictest states in the Union allow people to do their own electrical work, My friend wired his 4000 sq ft home, well his wife actually did the wiring.

Buildings
Those who perform electrical work on the following items are not required by the state to be licensed as electricians:

elevators, escalators, or related equipment excluding power sources (1305.003(a)(15) )

building, structure, or equipment in agricultural use (1305.003(a)(18) )

**a dwelling by a person who owns and resides in the dwelling (1305.003(a)(6) )**

construction and assembly of HUD-code manufactured housing or modular housing and building units, excluding service entrance conductors, performed by a licensed manufacturer or installer 1305.003(a)(20)

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/electricians/exemptions.htm

Like I said most people are intimidated but all the information is at your library or on youtube. I wired a complete house in Nevada by myself, Combined an extension panel and common panel together and had in inspected by the city. Very easy to do. If you do need a larger gauge of wire the city will do that because they are responsible for that side of the meter. When you get the permit that will all be taken into account by the city.

Andy

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https://www.cars.com/articles/what-it-cost-to-outfit-six-hom…

Ours was like the Attached Garage No. 1 example:
In this case, the service panel (200 amps) was in the basement, and the installer had to drill through the ceiling, floor and a wall to route the conduit to the wall where the editor wanted the charger mounted.

I did have a receptacle installed.
2021 pricing:
Labor: $245
Parts: $315
Webasto 30Amp EVSE I bought online: $265 (discontinued model).

Fitted the EVSE myself.

Our EVSE is only a 30Amp, but that’s about the max our EV can do.
I’ll upgrade when we get another EV with faster charging.

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I can only share what I know. The installers were actually at his home and told him it would cost thousands of dollars. It is an older (i.e. historic) home so perhaps it lacks newer wiring. IIRC, it was going to cost him over 5 grand to have his home rewired for a lvl 2. My guess is that his circuit breaker was not rated for at least 50 amps.

I did what Andy did just ran the line myself. I have an older home, but I had previously upgraded the panel and most of the wiring, so it wasn’t a big deal.

But I get it. Not everybody is going to have the ability/desire to charge at home. If you can’t charge where you normally park an EV probably won’t be practical.

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It is an older (i.e. historic) home so perhaps it lacks newer wiring.

Don’t let the rare edge case skew the fact that it is simple for most people.
In my house I had to have an electrician install a 40 amp circuit 2 feet from my breaker box.

Mike

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All of which comes down to … yes, there are some people who are currently bad candidates for EV because of some specific issues, but this is no different than that there are some people who are bad candidates for a particular type of ICE vehicle or who require a particular type of ICE vehicle. The problem is FAR from big enough to slow EV adoption for years to come.

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Like I said most people are intimidated but all the information is at your library or on youtube. I wired a complete house in Nevada by myself, Combined an extension panel and common panel together and had in inspected by the city. Very easy to do. If you do need a larger gauge of wire the city will do that because they are responsible for that side of the meter. When you get the permit that will all be taken into account by the city.

Andy by

Then again, I have seen some incredibly bad electrical work done by do-it-yourselfers. Open splices in wires running through my attic. Switches on the cold side of a light in my tool shed. If you or tele or anyone else proposed to do serious wiring, I wouldn’t buy the house.

CNC

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Then again, I have seen some incredibly bad electrical work done by do-it-yourselfers. Open splices in wires running through my attic. Switches on the cold side of a light in my tool shed. If you or tele or anyone else proposed to do serious wiring, I wouldn’t buy the house.

Yep CNC I have seen some terrible wiring done by licensed electricians. I put in security cameras around my whole house. The people across the street from me hired a professional electrician company. It was hilarious. They ran conduit around the house but had some tricky bends to make. Instead of making the bends they just didn’t put up conduit. Now they had open conduit that rain could get in. The people across from me asked me how I did it and I told them all the wiring is in the attic and comes outside the house. Every hole in the house was caulked shut and painted.

Sometimes the Pro in professional is just as bad as the Handy in handyman. I am sure we all could find instances where people didn’t follow code. Just as open splices in the attic is something anyone should know is against code just like stuccoing over junction boxes or more than 10 outlets on a 20 amp ckt. But even with that, people put to many devices on an outlet and pull more than 1.5 amps. So even those people cause problems inside their own homes without even realizing it.

Andy

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Don’t let the rare edge case skew the fact that it is simple for most people.

???

No skewing going on here. I asked a question and included my own prior assumption that it was indeed simple for most people.

Hawkwin
Who had his own EV on order as of two weeks ago - until the law changed.

CNC:"Then again, I have seen some incredibly bad electrical work done by do-it-yourselfers. Open splices in wires running through my attic. Switches on the cold side of a light in my tool shed. If you or tele or anyone else proposed to do serious wiring, I wouldn’t buy the house.’

Union based contractors screw up as well

Rented an apartment in a new complex in Schaumberg IL. Rented a garage. It had a timer for the light. When you turned on the light, the outlet on the wall would go dead. Duh! Roomie and I diagnosed problem, fixed our garage unit. Every other of the 30 garage units wired wrong. Reported to management and I guess they eventually got around to fixing it. So much for ‘union contractors’.

My dad wired summer house - passed inspection. Changed fuse box to circuit breakers and updated 60amp service to 100 in house in NJ. Tele was small kid at time but watched.

If I bought a place that needed wiring…well, as a senior, I’d hire someone to do it. I’d watch them, and check every outlet with a tester to make sure done the right way.

For those that jury rig their circuits, when it comes time to sell the house, it might not pass a good inspection from a house inspector…and get reported as code violation - which would cause all sorts of grief. Or additional wiring not inspected by town…

Yep, there are idiots out there who put pennies behind a burned out fuse in a fuse box because they didn’t have a replacement fuse. (our 1948 home had fuses to start)…as did just about everything else built before WW2. Apartments, houses, condos.

t.

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Range issues with EVs are often overblown. There is a bit of planning ahead involved - having good sources of info, knowing where you will need to stop to recharge, perhaps thinking about alternates. But none of this is rocket science.

However, it is slightly different than trip planning with an ICE, which can often be no planning at all. Just go. The fear of change can keep people from changing.

Got nothing to do with “fear of change”. Got to do with comparing the pluses and minuses of the two alternatives.

Gas car, no need to plan, just hop in your car and go. Just so long as you don’t try to drive from Death Valley directly to Las Vegas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Valley_Germans).

“Range anxiety” that EV aficionado throw at ICE people is not anxiety. It’s just a realistic rejection of the short range of EV cars. Likewise the refueling time. EV proponents handwave away the nuisances & long time of recharging. Handwave all you want, but most people find this unacceptable.

You know what is simpler that “a bit of planning ahead”? Right—not needing to plan at all.

Of course, the major potential problem that keeps being ignored and handwaved away is “where is the electricity coming from?”

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Of course, the major potential problem that keeps being ignored and handwaved away is “where is the electricity coming from?”

Its free, you take a balloon and rub it on your head, that has to be worth a few minutes of drive time. :slight_smile:

Andy

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T you really need to know the laws in your state.

Why? Just assume that everything he posts is a mix of ignorance and misinformation, and you’ll be almost entirely right. Knowing anything that corresponds to reality is really not what he does.

Doesn’t stop him from posting though.

-IGU-

You know what is simpler that “a bit of planning ahead”? Right—not needing to plan at all.

You know what leads to better decisions than making stuff up out of “common knowledge” and fear of the unknown? Right, reasoning from experience.

It’s pretty funny listening to all these experts who’ve never driven an EV explain how they’re unworkable. They’ll argue, with a complete lack of self awareness, with people who say: “No, I’ve done that and it works just fine. Actually, it’s better.”

Fear destroys reason. And reasoning from misinformation isn’t much use to begin with.

-IGU-

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keeps being ignored and handwaved away is “where is the electricity coming from?”

It isn’t as big a problem as you assume. But yes it needs to be addressed.

The basic math:
Assume:
a) 8K miles/yr and 4 m/kwh (basic city car)
b) 15K miles/yr and 3 m/khw (bigger family car)

a needs 2000 kwh/yr
b needs 5000 kwh/yr

Average home in the US consumes about 10K kwh/yr
Residential usage is ~20% of the total

a is an increase of 4%
b is an increase of 10%

So this means a 4 or 10% increase in electricity generation OVER THE NEXT 2 or 3 DECADES will provide enough electricity for every household to have one EV.

Note that night time electricity usage is 30% lower than daytime. TOU rates will nudge most people to charge most of the time at night.
And, sure we have to also consider delivery vans and other uses as well. But this is a many decades conversion.

Also, gasoline refining uses electricity at ~15% of the energy you get out.

Mike

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I’ve got 325amp service entrance…but every breaker spot is filled - so I’ll need an aux box if I go EV…

Problem solved: Tandem breakers

https://www.circuitbreakerwholesale.com/blogs/circuit-breake…

Mike

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>>You know what is simpler that “a bit of planning ahead”? Right—not needing to plan at all.<<

You know what leads to better decisions than making stuff up out of “common knowledge” and fear of the unknown? Right, reasoning from experience. - IGU


So your reasoning leads you to conclude that zero planning is not simpler than some planning.

Since planning requires effort, you are essentially saying zero effort take more effort than some effort. That violates some law of physics I think.

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