The Hits Keep on Coming

EVs wear out their tires faster than IC vehicle due to the weight of EV batteries.
Now we learn tires cause more pollution than exhaust gases.
https://www.techtimes.com/articles/276330/20220604/car-tire-…
And of course the impact upon the environment from mineral mining to produce battery packs. And more environmental impact from recycling old depleted battery packs.

IIt is a good thing EVs are cheaper to operate because their green label is becoming tarnished.

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TANSTAAFL

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IIt is a good thing EVs are cheaper to operate because their green label is becoming tarnished.

Oil is dirty but cleaner than coal. Coal is dirty but less harmful than cutting down trees. There is no magic bullet, just incremental improvement.

The Captain

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EVs wear out their tires faster than IC vehicle due to the weight of EV batteries.
Now we learn tires cause more pollution than exhaust gases.

Yeah, probably not.

By weight, more material comes off tires than emitted by exhaust gasses. But only a portion of that material comes off as particles small enough to become airborne. Some gets absorbed into the asphalt, some comes off as large solid particles that physically remain on the road, and some comes off as particles that get washed away by rain and enter the groundwater. Only a portion becomes the type of particulate that can be breathed in:

https://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/rubber-wears….

And even then, only the very smallest particulate pollution (fine particulates) are the ones that cause the health problems that are one of the main impacts of exhaust pollutions:

https://www.epa.gov/pm-pollution/health-and-environmental-ef….

Right now, tires probably don’t produce more fine particulate pollution than exhaust gases - though that’s likely to change as greater fuel efficiency/electrification continues, which will reduce exhaust gases. But still, there’s no way that the marginal increase in vehicle weight between EV’s (at most a thousand pounds) creates a tire dust impact that’s greater than the benefit of avoided emissions.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129809_tire-dust-is-po….

Albaby

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Here is a better article on the Emissions Analytics study:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jun/03/car-tyre…

"
High-precision scales measured the weight lost by the tyres and a sampling system that collects particles behind the tyres while driving assessed the mass, number and size of particles, down to 6nm. …

Far more small particles are produced by the tyres than large ones. This means that while the vast majority of the particles by number are small enough to become airborne and contribute to air pollution, these represent only 11% of the particles by weight. Nonetheless, tyres still produce hundreds of times more airborne particles by weight than the exhausts.

there has been particular debate over whether battery electric vehicles (BEVs), which are heavier than conventional cars and can have greater wheel torque, may lead to more tyre particles being produced. Molden said it would depend on driving style, with gentle EV drivers producing fewer particles than fossil-fuelled cars driven badly, though on average he expected slightly higher tyre particles from BEVs.

Dr James Tate, at the University of Leeds’ Institute for Transport Studies in the UK, said the tyre test results were credible. “But it is very important to note that BEVs are becoming lighter very fast,” he said. “By 2024-25 we expect BEVs and [fossil-fuelled] city cars will have comparable weights.
"

It seems credible that tire wear produces more airborne particulates than a clean modern gas vehicle exhaust. We definitely need to be regulating tires for toxic content, since so much ends up in the environment, and possibly taking measures to reduce their shedding into the environment, such as the device discussed in the link provided by albaby: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129809_tire-dust-is-po…

Here’s some discussion of the study direct from Emissions Analytics: https://mailchi.mp/emissionsanalytics/tire-wear-1850-worse

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This all seems to be leaving out that both EV and ICE will need new tires. If you guys 25% more millage with tires on an ICE okay the damage to the environment is something like 25% more. That is not make or break over using crude oil.

By weight, more material comes off tires than emitted by exhaust gasses. But only a portion of that material comes off as particles small enough to become airborne…And even then, only the very smallest particulate pollution (fine particulates) are the ones that cause the health problems that are one of the main impacts of exhaust pollutions.

From my post back on May 22nd:
https://discussion.fool.com/the-transition-to-battery-powered-el…
…around 11% of the mass of tire emissions is smaller than 2.5 microns in diameter…Therefore, the airborne tire emissions are more likely to be around 8 mg/km…

DB2

1 Like

Details matter.

The primary issue with the ICE emissions is the greenhouse gases. Tires produce pollution, but not greenhouse gases.

Worth watching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aar8njoGgNY

I agree there are issues with the minerals for batteries, but that is something being actively researched to reduce or eliminate. But let’s not forget that building, using, maintaining and rebuilding an ICE powertrain (including the transmission) is not “green” either.

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I agree there are issues with the minerals for batteries, but that is something being actively researched to reduce or eliminate.

Looking at past corporate behavior, Methinks corporations would be more interested in mining in low labor cost nations with weak/lax environmental law enforcement that leads to higher profits rather environmental friendly mining methods that likely are more costly & less profitable.

Environmental issues are known regarding IC vehicles. We are discovering some environmental issues with EV that were not known.

A big benefit of hybrid and EV vehicles is as more IC vehicles are replaced by them there will be a coinciding reduction of a “need” by the US government to meddle & intervene in oil producing Middle East countries that harbor Islamic fundamentalists presenting a security risk to the USA. These adventures cost the US trillions plus now a trillion dollar defense budget. Any green benefit from EV/hybrid vehicles is minor in comparison elimination of costly unnecessary US intervention/regime change foreign policy.

Any green benefit from EV/hybrid vehicles is minor in comparison elimination of costly unnecessary US intervention/regime change foreign policy.

That’s absolutely a key benefit to electrifying nearly anything in my mind, not just cars. And why I’m looking forward to more non-fossil-fuel electricity generation.

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EVs wear out their tires faster than IC vehicle due to the weight of EV batteries.

The Chevy EUV, the larger one, weight 3,600 pounds.

The Chevy Lumina weighs 3,300 pounds. Both are four door and seat four adults.

I don’t know but it seems unlikely that adding 300 pounds to a car, or two adults, results in it producing enough additional pollution to overcome the amount spewed by the tailpipe - unless you are talking about running the Lumina just on its rims, a strategy I haven’t heard of before.

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You have to take into account the extra torque that gives you zero to infinity in seconds… that’s where the rubber gets the extra wear…

The Captain

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Now we learn tires cause more pollution than exhaust gases.

And of course the impact upon the environment from mineral mining to produce battery packs. And more environmental impact from recycling old depleted battery packs.

========================================================================

What about all those race cars around the world eating up tires like mad. What abut the young adults having sideshows and eating up tires like mad. What about heavy duty trucks and busses eating up tires like mad.

Talking about mineral mining for battery packs is insignificant environmental compared to the impact of coal, oil and natural gas mining, drilling, processing and refining.

You keep looking at insignificant problems while ignoring the fossil fuel giants right in front of you.

Jaak

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EVs wear out their tires faster than IC vehicle due to the weight of EV batteries.

Isn’t this just an argument against all heavy vehicles, regardless of EV vs ICE?

Mike

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The Chevy Lumina weighs 3,300 pounds. Both are four door and seat four adults.

The Lumina was made decades ago, does not meet current crash standards.

The Lumina was a sedan. Many people have been convinced that they “need” a big SUV now. IIHS has modified it’s crash test sled to represent what it sees as the average vehicle on the road now, a 4200 lb SUV.

IIHS prepares to launch new, more challenging side crash test

To better reflect the higher-severity crashes occurring in the real world, Mueller and other IIHS engineers began a series of research tests at a higher speed — 37 mph instead of the 31 mph speed used in the current side rating test. They also made the movable barrier heavier, increasing its weight to nearly 4,200 pounds, the average weight of a 2019 model SUV.

https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/iihs-prepares-to-launch-new…

And, of course, the same people who have been convinced they “need” a big SUV, will continue to think they need a big SUV, regardless whether it is ICE powered or a BEV.

The Ford Lighting EV pickup weighs 6000 lbs.

Steve

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There is one solution–fewer consumers.

Earth was not designed for 8 billion people

Earth will be providing that solution if we keep expanding at this pace. She has already started the process.

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Earth was not designed for 8 billion people

Not to worry, Gaia has dealt with worse pests than humans. LOL

The Captain

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