No one is saying Israel should not act in response to the Hamas attack. What the ICJ and others is saying is that genocide is going too far with the response.
And yes, Hamas has said they want to commit genocide against Israel, but they have been entirely incapable of significant action towards that end. Of course the world needs to monitor any change in those capabilities. But the response to a threat of genocide is not a premptory genocide by someone actually capable of accomplishing that.
depends on what the evidence was.
Meaning 9000 militants sitting with their family members is not good evidence.
The problem is this is a new type fo warfare. The buildings were being knocked down at a very fast pace. In Northern Gaza evacuations happened and the buildings were stripped down and away. Most were completely empty.
There are two claims. One the buildings had people in them. There is some truth to that. Very little. The concern on all sides matters. Two starvation and disease matters to all of us. There are problems. The food is getting in but no one is giving aid to the Palestinians. The CNN report I linked shows there is very little global help.
Note before Jaak has his emotional stuff.
The food is getting in slowing disease. That is the priority.
Hamas can negotiate with Israel. That is not even asking Hamas to surrender. There is talk of a two-month truce to see if that holds. In exchange for 100 hostages.
Honestly there are a lot of dead and wounded but this is not ethnic cleansing. Ukraine is far worse. Yemen is far worse. Plenty of others are far worse. Hamas should have settled its problems with Israel as far back as 2010. If the Palestinians need to blame at all look at Hamas entirely.
ptheland provided the excellent explanation. You can see that he uses logic not bias.
The Israelis have killed 25k as of Jan 21. Out of 2.2 million that is not a genocide. At least 9000 have been militants. A good number have been their families surrounding them. Food is getting into the territory. People are not starving as much as much as portrayed. The risk of disease is really just how cheap all the other countries are in sending aid to Gaza. But with food there is less risk.
“The world needs to monitor” is that like after NK gets the bomb we will deal with it? Because I can safely say that is how Israel and anyone else would read that. Even Kim Un knows that trick fully. Israel has low-tech folks getting through tunnels and fighting for a lot of years.
Israel would have liked to push everyone off the Gaza Strip. With so many buildings destroyed people will have to leave. That is ethnic cleansing. It has little to nothing to do with genocide.
You say that like ethnic cleansing is OK.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide are like siblings. Closely related, but not exactly the same.
Ethnic cleansing is kind of the last step before genocide. Or perhaps a failed genocide.
Either way, Israel is flirting with genocide here, and the ICJ is telling them to step away from that cliff. There’s an argument that they haven’t committed genocide yet, but that’s kind of like a guy with a knife saying that the stab wounds he has inflicted aren’t fatal yet.
Neither ethnic cleansing nor genocide are appropriate responses to the Hamas attack on Israel.
It simply is not genocide. Most of the dead are related to Hamas. This is a war.
I do not think ethnic cleansing is okay. I do see it as a resolution. Hamas has had since 2007 to say absolutely no resolution will happen for one moment.
I see ethnic cleansing or a partial reduction in how many people in Gaza as the better outcome. I am not talking about killing them. The homes are gone.
You are talking about killing them. That has not been happening in terms of genocide. That has been happening in terms of a lopsided war.
Israel should sue Hamas in the world court for costs. This could have been prevented entirely by negotiating as far back as 2010.
Hamas should be held liable for the costs. All of their actions have caused this war and other bloodshed.
Israel has a history of negotiating with the Palestinians. Hamas would not sit down to negotiate. Hold them accountable in court.
“The Israeli government continues to oversell what it can accomplish through military means. It said that it can release Israeli hostages through military means, but with the exception of one hostage that has not proven to be the case,” said Hugh Lovatt, an expert on Israel-Palestine relations with the European Council on Foreign Relations.
“Military action has actually killed hostages,” he told Al Jazeera.
Despite the ordeal captives face, Palestinian civilians have borne the brunt of Israel’s loosely defined and unrealistic war aims, said Lovatt.
He said that Israel claims to have killed 9,000 Hamas fighters out of a total of more than 25,000 Palestinians killed in the enclave, according to the Ministry of Health in Gaza. However, 70 percent of the victims are believed to be women and children.
“My feeling is that Israel is treating every dead male [in Gaza] as Hamas,” Lovatt told Al Jazeera.
Lovatt said he doubted the Israeli figure of 9,000 Hamas fighters killed so far. But “even if we take that number as accurate”, he said, that still leaves the vast majority of the armed group’s personnel alive and ready to fight. According to the CIA, Hamas has about 35,000 fighters in Gaza alone, Lovatt pointed out. “That shows there are still a lot of fighters in Gaza that will outlast Israel’s military operations.”
Has Israel realised that it can’t ‘eradicate’ Hamas? | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera
There was no proof of genocidal intent before the ICJ.
The court has only found some Israeli ministers are using language that would incriminate them. In that, the language is too far out there. The court wanted to reign them in.
Because there is no intent there has been no call from the ICJ for a ceasefire.
The ICJ sees Israel as defending herself and as having that right in combat.
Jaak, Israel won this war before it began. Stop kidding around as if you are serious every time you read something damning Israel. Half of the Gazans might have to leave Gaza. You are glorifying in a war Hamas started. You are not acknowledging the hell that is the Muslim Brotherhood. That is the exact reason the Sephardic Jews will not submit to villages scattered across the Middle East and Iran as their living space. The Muslim Brotherhood is a massive sickness.
ICJ has demanded that Israel reign in the actions that appear to be genocide and ethnic cleansing which violate international law. So Israel is on probation while IJC wants further investigations performed on the South African case against Israel.
If Isreal ignores the ICJ demands, then IJC will take the next step in genocide ruling.
Go back and watch the court expert. You are making a lot of stuff up out of stubborn pride. The CNN link watch it.
NYT January 29, 2024
Mothers in Gaza are struggling to find clean water and baby formula for their newborns. Families are selling their possessions to buy sacks of flour. Some people are eating animal feed to survive.
In the northern city of Beit Lahia, Mahmoud Shalabi said people have brought cattle feed — made of corn or oat — to a mill to grind it into flour. It is barely edible, said Shalabi, 38, whose children are 7 and 9, but is preferable to starvation. “If you find it now,” he told us, “you will be able to have something to eat and feed your kids.”
Famine has become a central concern in the humanitarian calamity in Gaza, with nearly all households regularly skipping meals, according to the U.N. On a per capita basis, Bob Kitchen of the International Rescue Committee said, “It is the most intense hunger crisis I have ever seen.” He added: “Almost everyone is now hungry.”
In today’s newsletter, we will explain the crisis in Gaza — and the concern among experts that starvation has again become a tool of war.
Gaza’s food shortage stems mostly from Israel’s blockade, which has been especially intense since October.
That is not true.
First of all, South Africa brought the question before the International Court and the Court refused to call the situation in Gaza Genocide.
South Africa had asked the court to issue an emergency decree demanding Israel halt its military campaign. The Court which has always been decidedly biased against Israel said that Israel has a right to defend itself and denied the request by South Africa to decree a halt to the military campaign in Gaza.
Further:
The term was codified by the UN in the 1948 Genocide Convention: A high death toll alone is not proof of genocide.
Only two nations have officially declared the situation in Gaza as Genocide: South Africa and Columbia. Norway and several Middle East Countries have called for a cease fire, no talk about genocide. Even The Chairperson of the African Union Moussa Faki Mahamat called for both sides to end hostilities. Of course, Iran continues to demand the end of the people of Israel (all of them). Hamas has officially declared a platform of genocide against Israeli Jews. It’s interesting, that the same International Court has refused to list Hamas as a terrorist organization, even though countries of the Middle East have.
More:
This poll taken in the United States released four days ago:
The IDF Campaign in Gaza which is estimated to have killed more than 25,000 people since 7 October, amounts to genocide: 35% say it is, 36% say it isn’t, with 29% undecided.
You have no data on which to base that claim … just speculation.
It amazes me how people take one side or the other in this dispute and act like all the blame lies with the other side, when, to me, it seems like we have two bad actors.
The IJC is not biased. It has members from many nations including USA and Israel. Only guilty nations claim that the court is biased in its rulings.
The ICJ put Israel on probation for what appears to be genocide. Israel now has to follow the rules ICJ issued. Furthermore, the ICJ wants further investigations to be performed into the allegations made by South Africa. Other nations are waiting and watching the situation. They do not want to be accused of supporting a possible genocidal Israel.
US is the only nation that provides extensive support to Israel. Any polls from the US are worthless.
That’s not exactly true, either. From my understanding, the ICJ has not made a ruling one way or the other on South Africa’s claim of genocide. That question is still before the court.
As you correctly say, South Africa also asked the ICJ to call for an immediate halt to the fighting. That request was not granted, but the ICJ did call for Israel to limit casualties and allow more humanitarian aid. They don’t appear to be allowing that aid yet.
And has someone else has pointed out, this doesn’t seem to be a case of good guys vs. bad guys. It’s bad guys vs. bad guys. Neither Hamas nor Israel is innocent here. Hamas attacked Israel. Israel has been oppressing the residents of Gaza for years.
Personally, I fully back Israel’s right to exist. But I also back the Palestinians right to exist as a separate and independent state. Unfortunately, neither of these parties seems interested in allowing the other to exist.
We in the US can’t do a whole lot to change that situation. The best we can do is stop selling arms to either side, and encourage every other country in the world to do the same. We cannot force peace to exist, but we can stop providing weapons of war.
–Peter
You are ignoring the facts!
Israel is starving Gaza and denying clean water, medicines, other essentials. Israel is destroying medical facilities, homes, shops, businesses, libraries, univerisities, and essential water, power, fuel, transportation and communications infrastructure. Israel is destroying the culture of Gaza. That is what makes up geneocide considerations. Not lies by Israel that Hamas hides in every home, shop, business, church, hospital, library, school …
The court never said “what appears to be genocide” in its ruling. You made that up, which clearly shows your bias.
That is what the court said.
Anti-American sentiment noted.
UK statement at the UN Security Council:
”The UK continues to support Israel’s right to defend itself against Hamas terrorism as it seeks the return of over 100 hostages who are still held in Gaza. But we are absolutely clear that Israel must be targeted and precise in achieving that goal.”
Germany Statement:
“Berlin will present its own arguments against South Africa’s allegation Israel violated Genocide Convention; can’t impact call for interim injunction from court demanding ceasefire”
Canada:
“ We reaffirm Canada’s longstanding support for Israel and its right to defend itself in accordance with international law” Prime Minister Trudeau
The US, UK, France, Germany, Italy and Canada released a joint statement:
“ Leader reiterate their support for Israel and its right to defend itself against terrorism and we call for adherence to international humanitarian law”
Meanwhile, South Africa, which also has been accused of genocide; a word that gets thrown around whenever a group needs a headline. Comparing the situation in Gaza with the final solutions carried out by NotSee Germany & its allied countries (Arab countries allied with NotSeeI Germany BTW) is ridiculous, and not supported. Furthermore, South Africa as a humanitarian model is more than ridiculous. The murder capital of the world, they’re too busy going to ICJ while refusing to even keep crime statistics in their own country on crime. In practice, rape is condoned by the Government of South Africa. Nearly half the women in South Africa have been raped, law enforcement turns a blind eye. S.A. does not keep statistics on rape because it is so out of proportion; they don’t want to talk about it.
But… According to you, America is suspect and can’t be abided when it comes to humanitarian issues. South Africa is quite a model to replace it with.
You did not read what European Commision stated about the ICJ ruling.
The ruling of the I.C.J.—which is distinct from the International Criminal Court—fell short of finding Israel guilty of having committed genocide, but such a decision could take years; South Africa had also urged the court to order an immediate ceasefire, which it did not do. (The court does not have an enforcement mechanism.) But the I.C.J. still found cause for great concern about Israel’s military actions, and also the statements of its leaders. “At least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza,” the court found, “appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the [Genocide] Convention.”
The Importance of the I.C.J. Ruling on Israel | The New Yorker.
I see that countries are now distancing themselves from being accused of supporting Israeli excessive use of force and destruction. Yes they claim no cease fire was called for by the ICJ. But the ICJ can not call for a cease fire anyway because it does not have anyway to enforce a cease fire. ICJ has put the spotlight on Israeli actions and words about Gaza. This s[potlight is what matters. The world is watching Israel. Will they obey ICJ demands? If they ignore them, which countries will still support Israel?
You must be kidding. The ruling references the genocide laws and the specific itmes of the ruling are geared to eliminating genocide. ICJ is saving calling Israel a genocide nation until the South African case is studied and any new information is obtained. Will Israel want to be painted as a geneocide nation?