Where I've been and where I'm going

Where I’ve been and where I’m going.

This is a modification of a post I made a couple of years ago, but I thought repeating it would still be useful to some readers of the board.

For a little history, I started this board about eleven years ago after having become semi-famous (or notorious) after the Westport incident. Westport was a company that was being lauded on the Fool, and became a favorite of many people. It was selling at about $32 at the time. I pointed out that its expenses were more than 225% of revenue, and thus it had losses that were well more than 125% of revenue, and only had gross margins of about 28% (it only kept 28% of revenue to pay operating expenses with), so that it would have to more than quintuple revenue before gross profit could give it a chance of just breaking even. But even with five times as much revenue they wouldn’t break even, not even then, because with five times as much revenue their operating costs would be way up too. And besides, it was only growing its revenue at 15% per year so that it was impossible to quintuple revenue. I said that it was impossible to ever break even! I was hated on the Westport board for denigrating everyone’s favorite, but the price kept dropping and people were “doubling up at a better price.” (I just looked at the current share price and it is 45 cents (It says $4.46, but that’s because it did a 1-share-for-10-shares reverse stock split in 2023) ) Anyway, after this, friends encouraged me to start a board of my own, and it has grown to this.

I have had a successful career investing for many years. You can read about the 26 years from 1989 through May of 2024 on my Knowledgebase Part 1. From 1989 to 2024 is a lot of time for compounding to accumulate. For example, as of the end of 2022, I had a 1745-bagger on my entire portfolio (even after subtracting the horrible 2022 losses). That’s not 17 TIMES what I started with. It’s 1745 TIMES.

Please understand though that I don’t have all that money. I’ve been retired since June of 1996 (for more than twenty-eight years) and living off my investing for all that time. That means renting and buying houses, paying for groceries, going to restaurants, buying cars, airplane rides, clothing for all the family, hotels, sending my daughter to college and other schools, medical bills, electricity bills, computers, home repairs, paying taxes, the whole works, for twenty-eight years plus.

What that compounds to is what I would have had if I could have left it all in to compound, but I took out money for our full expenses every year, as well as for emergency money set aside. Just for example, if that compounds currently to 600 times what I had in 1996 when I retired, it means that every single ten dollars that I took out for our family to live on in 1996 would mean six thousand dollars less I’d have now (600 times), and so on each year.

A number of people were very skeptical when I first said I had made 30% per year in ordinary markets. Some even implied that I must be lying, that even Warren Buffet couldn’t do it. (But he was investing billions of dollars, like piloting a battleship instead of a speedboat. He had to buy whole companies, for God’s sake!).

The year 2018, for example, was a slightly down market. The S&P was down 6.6%, and the Russell 2000 Small Cap Index was down 12.5%, but my portfolio was up 71.4%. Others on this board, following the principles that we discuss, were up even more. And it wasn’t magic. I’d been transparent and given all my positions and their relative size each month, and basically told exactly what I was doing. Stock picking does work (obviously). Especially if you are lucky, as I must have been. Some people say you can’t beat the market in the long run. They are wrong!

Please note that it’s a lot harder to make great returns as the amount you are managing gets larger. I can no longer get in and out of a stock position on a dime as I could when my portfolio was a tiny fraction of the size it is now. I just can’t be as nimble as I was, and a number of years ago I said that I would be very happy now if I can average 22% growth per year instead of 32%.

Well, in the seven years of 2016 through 2022 inclusive, I compounded at just under 30% even with the horrible 2022. Again, I really don’t think that is a realistic expectation going forward.

During all those years that I was investing I mostly invested looking for growth, EPS, PE, and PEG ratios, and looking for special companies. Then in about 2017, I, and the others on the board, found SaaS stocks, who sold a perpetual subscription to software that became inbedded in the customers company and that was serviced in the internet/cloud. The SaaS companies thus had the advantage that when they got a new customer the revenue was not only here this year, but was here next year too, and the year after, and the year after that, etc. Not only was the revenue there, but it grew from year to year as the customer bought more bells and whistles or used the softwware for more of its company. It was like magic! Many of these SaaS companies were growing revenue at rates almost never seen before, like 50% to 150% per year. And they had relatively huge gross margins of 60% to 90% !!!, because they weren’t manufacturing any physical products but were just hooking more companies up on their software.

At first these companies were relatively undiscovered and selling at fairly normal EV/S ratios in spite of the huge advantages mentioned above, but then the stock prices took off, partly because of revenue increases but also because of increases in valuation. People from all over began reading our board and investing in the stocks just because we were. At one point, a poster on our board found a very obscure statistic, specific to the industry that the company was in, that no one had ever heard of, on one of our companies, and two hours later a Wall Street Analyst changed his rating on that company, citing that statistic. Obviously he had been following our board.

All of this kept pushing the stock prices up, and up, and up, but it was hard for me and others to decide to exit, as the prices kept rising. For instance, in 2020 my portfolio was up 233% (to 333% of what I started the year with, more than tripling), and then in 2021, by Nov 9th, it had risen to up 93%, almost doubling, on top of the rise the year before. Now 333% times 1.93 equals 643%, so I had almost six and a half times what I had started with less than two years before! Up 543%! It was heady stuff! The smartest thing to have done was to have taken some of the cash out and left the rest in to keep growing. I took some out, but I wish I had taken out more. I was slow to react to the accumulation of factors which piled up on our companies. Especially came the inevitable slowing of growth that came with our companies getting larger (the so-called Law of Big Numbers), so that the lower percentage annual revenue gains could no-longer support the huge valuations.

I admit that I was slow to react to all this, hoping naively that these excellent companies would resume their rapid growth and that all would be right with the world. I was wrong. But I have pivoted more recently. I’ve regularly pulled cash out of my investment money and added to the cash I had permanently removed from active investing, so that the proportion of my total funds that is in stocks is getting smaller and smaller. I decided that since I have enough money to get along for the rest of my life (my wife and I are old), there’s no reason to risk it, and the money is locked away where I can’t get at it even if I wanted to. If I look at all my funds, a large part of the total is in cash or equivalents. This may not be such a good time to be in cash, who knows? But who cares! I have enough of both, and if the investment part goes up it’s just gravy.

I hope that this has been helpful. I’ll welcome comments.

Saul

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Thanks for sharing the ride, Saul.
I have a question: when you retired early to start as a full-time investor, did you have a predefined number to reach so you could “re-retire”? Or did that come later? Or still don’t have a number and want to continue without a predefined end, “for the love of the game”?

Thanks,
Rod

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Thank you Saul for sharing your wisdom and creating this wonderful community. A 1745 bagger on your portfolio! I can’t even imagine how big that number looks and the amount of compounding it needs to get there. Amazing journey!

The knowledge base needs to be turned into a book and taught in high school and colleges. That would change so much about how kids learn and the relationship they have with money.

I had a question for you:

During this journey and as we know the knowledge base today, how has your thought process changed? What were the key moments where you made significant changes to your investing process?

Would love to hear about it’s evolution.

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Saul, the wisdom of this post - and Bear’s recent one in a similar vein - corresponds to a recent article I read on seeking alpha about the “utility” of your investments, and how much money is risked - and lost - because people don’t factor that in.

They believe everyone should ask themselves: how much more utility will this extra money get you (if you gain it) vs. the risk you are taking on?

If you have enough, and the extra money will not buy you anything more that you need or want, then why take on that risk?

I have read many articles about investing bubbles but one hit home recently: it said there is always a bubble in the market somewhere and they almost always burst because of a decrease in earnings / earnings growth or rising inflation rates. Oh yea, and there always is a “this time is different” component to it, too.

While nobody talked about a SAAS bubble, if you look at the valuation chart from Jamin Ball’s Clouded Judgement (I posted it at one point) you can clearly see it was a bubble, I call it a stealth bubble because we never called it one but clearly in retrospect it was. And it burst for exactly the reasons the article said it would.

I don’t think we are in an “AI bubble” right now, except in some stocks (Palantir, anyone?) but I think it’s useful to always evaluate every stock you own and ask yourself, could this be in bubble territory? And to do it by using simple math - how much does it have to make for how long to justify this valuation - even if the numbers are vastly superior than Westport’s. “Over-valuation” is fine, that happens to most great stocks, but we must be thoughtful about when that overvaluation goes into bubble territory. As we have all seen, it’s very hard to know when to get out, and the crash happens so quickly when it happens, it’s hard to be brilliant enough to get out early.

I think this post is your Victory Lap, where you get to make yet another wise choice to teach everyone on your board the final lesson of investing - if they are willing to listen - which is when to take your profits, and exit stage right.

i’m not old enough to do that yet but in the last month I have asked myself these utility questions, and have adjusted my holdings accordingly. Very young people should ignore this but anyone approaching retirement should consider utility in their assessments.

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Hi Rod,
No predetermined number. I was old enough to retire, and we had a little daughter, so I just knew that I had to make enough for us to live on.

As far as “continuing for the love of the game” even when there is no need, there is certainly some of that. I’ve always loved playing games, from crossword puzzles to Chinese checkers, to dominos, to bridge, and the French analog to bridge which is called belote.

Best,

Saul

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Hi Ryshab,
It’s really hard to say, because I really don’t remember now exactly what my criteria were 30 or 25 or 20 years ago. When I started the board I know that I was using PE, PEG, etc, but then when SaaS came along I dropped all that and went for SaaS companies growing at near or over 100% per year, until they got too big and slowed massively and I took some of the loss of the pullbacks. I’m sorry, but I know that this doesn’t help you much.
Saul

PS - I should also make it clear that as I am getting not only older but OLD, I can no longer focus and concentrate on my stocks as well as I used to, and this is an additional part of why I have fewer stocks in my portfolio.

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I discovered your board maybe 9 years ago, I know you have had several falls that have set you back. I know you will probably delete me because you don’t like people trying to pour gratitude on to you. You have been like the person that gave oars to a person who was just floating aimlessly. I have given to a charity that I know you favor and maybe others don’t know about- “Compassion & Choices” because I appreciated what I have learned from you and others on this board. Just wanted to say this because you last post moved me.

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I was wondering if you remember what the bull case for Westport was at the time from the defenders? Was it the case of a story stock where the management was making promises the numbers didn’t support?

This is the description I found of the company, “Manufacturers advanced fuel systems and components for clean, low-carbon fuelds such as natural gas, propane, and hydrogen”. Seems a company where the narrative could sound compelling in contrast to the actual finacial results.

The smartest thing to have done was to have taken some of the cash out and left the rest in to keep growing. I took some out, but I wish I had taken out more. I was slow to react to the accumulation of factors which piled up on our companies.

I’m curious if you think that having a more diversified portfolio with some names outside of SaaS could have helped here? I was also allin on SaaS and thought my portfolio was diversified because the customers of the SaaS vendors were from such a wide variety of Fortune 500 and Global 2000 companies.

Looking back, it would have helped if I had some names at the time where in unrelated business models and industries. That way when the SaaS companies were rising to levels which felt unsustainable it could have been a natural transition to rotate some funds from the over extended SaaS companies into other high confidence positions that did not rise as fast.

Lastly was curious if your view of interest rate changes has changed, or do you consider it largely irrelavant to growth investing in the long term? I was completely blindsided by the interest rate changes is that 2021-2022 period where each raise of the interest rate was lowering SaaS as a category by 5-10%. There were some older investment books I had read which mentioned interest rates often, but I thought that was a relic of the past somewhat. Since interest rates hadn’t really factored into growth investing much since 2010 or so, it was an unforseen risk factor I didn’t anticipate.

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Hi Mizzmonika, Thanks for your kind words. And with regards to your comment about overvaluation, AMZN is a great example. It has been “overvalued” probably for the last 20 years or so, and maybe in bubble territory for part of that. I looked at a random date in 2002 and it was at $1.24 split adjusted, and it’s now at $186.00. That’s about a 150 bagger or so, but people always thought it was over priced and overvalued.

I can remember Jeff Bezos being interviewed and saying “I appreciate everyone’s confidence but our stock price is overvalued. We are just a bookstore after all, even if we are on the web.”

And if you look at insider trading, you’ll find a vast preponderance of insider sales every month for all those years .

Saul

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Hi Cobi,
Yes, about 12-13 years ago I fell skiing and broke my left knee and had a piece of titanium inserted and had to give up skiing, which I was very sad about. In the past 4-5 years I fell and broke off the head of my left humerus (left shoulder). Then I fell and broke my right elbow (titanium again). Then in March of this year I tripped and fell and broke my right shoulder and right hip. (Prosthetic titanium shoulder replacement and less complicated titanium in hip). I’m the “metal man” at present, with titanium in four joints. And a couple of other falls where I didn’t break anything.

You have been like the person that gave oars to a person who was just floating aimlessly. I have given to a charity that I know you favor and maybe others don’t know about- “Compassion & Choices” because I appreciated what I have learned from you and others on this board.

Thanks so very much Cobi for your kind words.

Yes, this is very OT for the board, but at my age I know that my time remaining is limited. I’m not afraid of being dead but I’m terrified of a long painful, agonizing dying, going on for weeks or months.

Compassion and Choices campaigns for people who are dying to have the choice to have physician-assisted dying in peace and at home, if that is what they choose. It’s been approved now in about a dozen states. Apparently quite a number of people who get the medication never use it, but just have the peace of mind knowing that if the pain gets too unbearable that they have a way out. I also donate to it but I can’t imagine how you knew what my favorite charity was.

Best,

Saul

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Hi wpr101. At the time they were manufacturing the whole trucks and the story was that these cleaner fuel trucks were going to take over the world.

The trouble was that while SaaS companies were growing revenue at 70% to 125% you, it was hard to put some of your money in companies growing revenue at 25% or 30%, even though 25 or 30% would have been very respectable growth in normal times.

I think we must have learned the lesson though, because I don’t know of anyone on the board who is currently putting ALL of their money into AI stocks or NVDA.

As far as interest rates, rising interest rates slow down the growth of the whole economy, and is bad for many kinds of stock prices. That’s just the way it is.

Saul

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Just as a general note, I’m sure we are all know that Saul’s great board serves both retirees like Saul, as well as people at the peak of their career earning powers, and even people just starting out who are wisely starting to save for eventual retirement. While Saul is pulling cash out of investments, other people may be in circumstances wanting their money to grow aggressively, and having the investing horizon to make that reasonable.

We should continue to be aware that no investing strategy serves everyone, and be tolerant of different people having different risk/reward profiles, as well as goals.

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My problem with SaaS versus the current collection isn’t just being disappointed now about not getting the SaaS growth … although I would happily have some more of that … but rather subject matter. Being a software architect who has developed and marketed a large on-line system, I generally felt semi-comfortable evaluating a SaaS company. But, what do I know about fashion or [non-wine] drinks? Not to mention that that sort of company seems very prone to being fashionable for a while and then not, often for difficult to perceive reasons.

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@Tamhas I’m curious if you think SAAS is still a sector that is more worthy of attention (and your investments) than others? From where I stand, I think what was most attractive about SAAS was that Saul and a few others recognized it was undervalued by the market. That, coupled with a confluence of other factors (zero interest, a new-ish revenue model, etc) meant that there was a lot of money to be made.

None of those factors seem to be in play anymore. Certainly SAAS and its business model is no secret to the broader market; moreover, the companies we’ve long been happy with have very much come back down to earth as far as revenue growth is concerned.

Do you think the DDOG/NET/CRWD/S’s of the world are going to knock it out of the park in the next 5 years? Most of them are flat-ish over the past 3, so it will take something extraordinary to make them a top investment from 2018 - 2028.

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I am in short supply on companies that I think are going to grow dramatically and which are predictable. I think that you are right that the growth rate of SaaS caught people by surprise. I suppose that initially a company that went SaaS had a huge advantage over competitors, but these days, the competitors are likely SaaS too. The security companies are not really in my sphere of expertise.

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As a platitude, your sentiment is much appreciated. But I think this board is different as it caters to the growth and higher risk elements of one’s portfolio. There are other places to go if you want dividend stocks, for example.
I am in the process of concentrating my portfolio and segmenting it into a dividend portfolio and a growth portfolio as I close in on retirement. I aspire to report to this board my decisions and reasoning for the latter, but I wouldn’t dare report to you on the former. As Saul makes it clear that his activities here are separate and distinct from his safety fund, of which he never discusses other than to acknowledge and lobby for the existence of one.

Vince

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Saul, My first introduction to you was that Westport post you referenced. I was a Fool adherent in those days. Unlike several other folks who reacted negatively to your analysis, I recognized the validity of what you had written and immediately sold my small position. Westport was a poster child for a “story stock.” I don’t clearly recall, but I think I was one of the few who actually expressed written gratitude for your observations. I don’t know how long after that I discovered this board, but suffice it to say, I was one of the early followers. I can’t begin to describe how many ways it has been beneficial. It’s not just the accumulated wealth, more importantly, it’s the knowledge and confidence I have gained with respect to selecting, and equally important, forgoing investment opportunities.

It might be worth a few minutes, especially for the younger members to describe the investment information environment of those days. TMF was one of the very early websites to cater to regular, retail investors, those who did not already have very substantial net worth. In those days, up to the minute (OK, 15 minutes delayed) stock quotes was a new thing. The primary criteria Saul’s method looked at initially was YoY growth and P/E. If both numbers were near 20 the company was a candidate for further analysis.

Generally speaking, that consisted of first determining what the company did in order to produce revenue and whether or not they had some sort of moat. Making this initial determination did not require a great deal of time and effort. It was intended mainly to weed out companies.

Once a company was identified as worthy of further study, Saul recommended that we use non-GAAP numbers when we looked at the income statement. There was more than one discussion as to whether or not this was appropriate. Saul would take the time to explain why he felt this provided a better picture of a company’s performance, but he didn’t find fault with those who disagreed. He simply asserted that this was his preference.

This was still quite some time prior to webcasts of quarterly conference calls. We could get 10-Q and 10-K online, but transcripts of the meetings with the Q&A were not yet available. In general, unlike today, there simply wasn’t a lot of information that was easily available.

Despite how the investing information landscape has changed since those early days when Saul first created this board, it’s a testament to the value Saul has created that this board remains a vital resource for investors who pursue capital gains. All of who are regular readers/contributors here are deeply in debt to Saul Rosenthal.

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In my effort to be brief I left out what I thought was obvious - that we’re discussing investing in companies with high growth prospects. We’re not discussing dividend stocks, which you brought up.

But, even within growth discussions, there are degrees of risk/reward. Saul’s “enough money” decision is one prominent example. Others, such as those at the start or middle of their investing journey who don’t intend to touch that money for decades will have a different approach. Again, within the overall growth investing strategy.

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