5G Affects Airline Industry

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-airline-ceos-warn-of…

The chief executives of major passenger and cargo carriers in the United States on Monday warned of an impending “catastrophic” aviation crisis on Wednesday when AT&T and Verizon are set to deploy new 5G service.

The airlines warned the new C-Band 5G service could potentially make a significant number of wide-body aircraft unusable and “could potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas.”

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has warned that potential interference could affect sensitive plane instruments such as altimeters and impact on low-visibility operations.

Why are we just hearing this now just prior to AT&T and Verizon implementation of 5G?

Because the airlines will not update forty year old altimeter systems,I think.

Why are we just hearing this now just prior to AT&T and Verizon implementation of 5G?

The airlines have been complaining about it almost since the spectrum was auctioned, we’re just hearing more about it now because it’s about to be implemented. Or not.

I confess to not paying a lot of attention to it, but from what I have read other countries have deployed their 5G without any such problems, or at least none that the alarmist, hyper, hysterical media (a tip of the Halo hat to Steve203) has talked about.

But then I’m assuming that the same spectrum is being used overseas as is being contemplated here; I don’t really know. I do know that there are discrete blocks of spectrum, sometimes not contiguous, that are used for cell service in the various configurations.

I do know that Korea, China, Japan and several countries in South America have deployed 5G; presumably the aircraft that serve them use the same radios and avionics as here, so I don’t get what the big deal is, but perhaps someone who knows more about it will chime in. I’d be interested, certainly. (Getting close to time for an upgrade on my phone, anyway.)

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Hey Goofy -

I do know that Korea, China, Japan and several countries in South America have deployed 5G; presumably the aircraft that serve them use the same radios and avionics as here, so I don’t get what the big deal is, but perhaps someone who knows more about it will chime in. I’d be interested, certainly. (Getting close to time for an upgrade on my phone, anyway.)

Here is some information that I hope you and others may find useful on this topic:

Understanding 5G
https://www.reply.com/en/industries/telco-and-media/understa…

Low-band spectrum is currently being used for 2G, 3G and 4G services for voice, MBB services and Internet of Things (IoT). Newly allocated spectrum for mobile networks include the 600 MHz and 700 MHz bands. These bands are ideal for wide-area and outside-in coverage as well as for deep indoor coverage, typically required for eMBB and voice services, but also required for M2M type of communication from outside to inside the building, even in deep basements.

Mid-band spectrum is currently used for 2G, 3G and 4G services. New spectrum has been widely allocated in the 3.5 GHz band, with more spectrum planned to be made available in the 1.5 GHz (L-band) and 5 GHz (unlicensed) bands. Bandwidths of 50 megahertz to 100 megahertz per network will enable high-capacity and low-latency networks ideal for 5G use cases such as enhanced MBB (eMBB) and Ultra Reliable Low Latency Communications (URLLC), for critical IoT applications. With better wide- area and indoor coverage than high-band spectrum, the mid-band spectrum is an optimal compromise between coverage, quality, throughput, capacity and latency. Combining the mid-band spectrum with low-band spectrum leads to exceptional network improvements in terms of capacity and efficiency.

High-band spectrum clearly provides the anticipated leap in data speed, capacity, quality and low latency promised by 5G. New spectrum bands are typically in the range of 24 GHz to 50 GHz, with contiguous bandwidths of more than 100 megahertz per network. The high-band provides a significant opportunity for very high throughput services for xMBB, localized deployments and low latency use cases, e.g. industrial IoT, venues, etc, both for indoor and outdoor deployments. Fixed wireless access (FWA) will also benefit from these higher bands in terms of capacity. As the coverage range is very limited (hundred-meter magnitude), for wider-area coverage, combinations with low-band and mid-band are essential.

Here is a List of Countries with 5G Network and their Spectrums
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_5G_NR_networks

But the best reference I think is from our friends at the FAA - which explain the issue and also directly answer your question above.

https://www.faa.gov/5g

Cheers to a new 5G phone.
'38Packard

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The main problem is ancient technology in the radar altimeters

from https://www.aviationtoday.com/2021/12/23/faa-issues-new-rada….

"The 5G wireless networks scheduled to be switched on by AT&T and Verizon next month will occur within the 3.7–3.98 GHz frequency range, close to the altimeters. "

The radar altimeters are in the 4.2-4.4 Ghz area.

The existing front end filters of the radar altimeters is as wide as a barn door. No problem in the past as the band was used for point to point microwave and mostly satellite uplink with very narrow beams.

I’m surprised no one is on a crash program (well, that might not be the best choice of words) to develop a front end filter that could be put in front of the radar altimeters in the plane to solve the problem! You’d think a few companies would be scrambling to develop, implement, and ship filters for the existing thousands of radar altimeters or immediately come out with new models that are interference free. It’s bee two years since the ‘problem’ has been noted and studied.

Right now, it’s like demanding your neighbor down the street with one of those big bright security lights turn it off at night because it shines in your window 400 feet away since you like to keep the shade up and the window open and it keeps you awake. Or change it from a 300w bulb to a 10w bulb.

t

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I confess to not paying a lot of attention to it, but from what I have read other countries have deployed their 5G without any such problems, or at least none that the alarmist, hyper, hysterical media (a tip of the Halo hat to Steve203) has talked about.

There was a more rational report on the BBC tonight. As you point out, the report noted that 5G systems were turned on in other countries some time ago, without any of the cataclysms the US airlines are howling about. And those hysterical US airlines have known this was coming for several years, and declined to do anything.

Telegraph laid out the problem and an easy fix. But implementing the fix would require someone in management to change his routine to implement it, and it would cost something. Having lived in the US auto industry’s front yard for decades, I am used to hysterical CEOs proclaiming the end of the world is nigh, because they don’t want to learn anything, or change anything, or invest in anything that does not immediately add to the bottom line.

Steve

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Why are we just hearing this now just prior to AT&T and Verizon implementation of 5G?

Probably because many other nations have already done the switchover with no problems?

Whenever change of anything happens in some places there are always people that go into drama overdrive … probably with personal gain or government money as the motive?

Anymouse

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“Probably because many other nations have already done the switchover with no problems?”

If you read the links provided, you’d see that ‘other countries’ have reduced power by a factor of 2.5 at base stations and done more with radiation patterns near airports. Also using a bit less of the C-band with only 70 MHz used at the low end compared to 100 MHz in the USA at the low end.

It would probably take a replacement of the radar altimeters to feel completely satisfied that the problem is ‘fixed’. Front end filters would help a bit, but the current technology is 40 years old and wide as a barn door receiver wise.

Newer DSP based systems would be excellent. There’s been talk of new models and you’d think there would be a major government effort (and funding) to get them designed, installed, inspected, verified and operational. (yeah, there’s a ream of red tape to get anything approved that goes into a commercial air plane). No different that coming up with a COVID 19 vax in 8 months.

t.

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Sounds like Airbus does not have a problem, while some Boeing 777 and 787 have possible interference. The first 777 went into service in 1995, and more 777’s are being built today. The first 787 went into service in 2011.

This is a disagreement between the FCC and the FAA. The FCC decision to use the C-Band for 5G was only made 2 years ago, in March 2020, and at the time the FCC said further analysis was needed to determine if there was interference. The FCC is an independent agency, and the FAA reports to the Secretary of Transportation. I think the FCC should limit 5G deployment around airports to whatever the FAA decides is safe. The engineers at the FAA can sort out the engineering disagreements, and the telecoms should be paying the airlines to update vulnerable systems if they want more towers.

— links ----
Airlines disrupted worldwide by U.S. 5G ‘nightmare’, January 19, 2022
“The 777 last year was the second-most used widebody plane on flights to and from U.S. airports with around 210,000 flights… British Airways switched its daily flight to Los Angeles to an Airbus A380 from the usual Boeing 777 service”
https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/airlines-…

Which aircraft models are affected by 5G interference in the U.S.?, January 19, 2022
“Although other aircraft types reportedly possess low risk, it seems that the Boeing 777 is at a higher risk of radio altimeter interference from 5G signals.”
https://www.airlive.net/which-aircraft-are-affected-by-5g-in…

Continued Airworthiness Notification to the International Community, January 14, 2022
“The FAA determined anomalies on Boeing Model 787-8, 787-9, and 787-10 airplanes due to 5G C-Band interference which may affect multiple airplane systems using radio altimeter data, regardless of the approach type or weather. These anomalies may not be evident until the airplane is at low altitude during approach… the presence of 5G C-Band interference can result in degraded deceleration performance, increased landing distance, and runway excursion.”
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/2022-01/CAN-2022-01…

5G altimeter interference: aviation versus telecoms, December 23, 2021
“When the FCC auctioned off spectrum in the C-band — 3.7 GHz to 3.98 GHz – winners including Verizon and AT&T spent over $81 billion to acquire portions of that spectrum. The use of the C-band for 5G raised concerns from the aviation industry regarding possible interference with aircraft altimeters.”
https://www.5gtechnologyworld.com/5g-altimeter-interference-…

What Is The C-Band? The 5G Brawl Between Airlines And Telecoms, Explained, January 4, 2022
“in March 2020, the FCC announced it would reallocate much of the C-Band by adopting new rules… In an FCC auction ending in February 2021, 21 telecoms companies bid just over $81 billion for over 5,600 C-Band licenses in the U.S… The aviation industry has pointed out for several years that aircraft radio altimeters operate on C-Band frequencies.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2022/01/04…

The Government of the United States
https://www.usgovernmentmanual.gov/ReadLibraryItem.ashx?SFN=…

Assessment of C-Band Mobile Telecommunications Interference Impact on Low Range Radar Altimeter Operations, October 7, 2020
“On March 3, 2020, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) released their Report and Order of Proposed Modification in the matter of Expanding Flexible Use of the 3.7 to 4.2 GHz Band… The FCC Report and Order acknowledged that further analysis is warranted to evaluate the potential for interference to radar altimeters”
https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SC-239-5G-In…

“Real-world evidence overwhelmingly confirms that C-band spectrum can safely be used for 5G, without causing harmful interference to aviation equipment.”
https://www.5gandaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Fac…

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“. The engineers at the FAA can sort out the engineering disagreements, and the telecoms should be paying the airlines to update vulnerable systems if they want more towers.”"

No, no, no

The telecoms paid 81 BILLION, repeat, 81 billion to the government for the licenses. That’s a lot of money sitting idle now until things are turned on.

The government, with 81 billion dollars, should be spending a billion or two to come up with filters that go ahead of the radar altimeters so the crappy existing receivers aren’t overloaded with signals from ‘out of band’.

55% of aircraft have already been tested and are OK. It’s only the 777 mainly that are the ‘unknown’ area and IMMEDIATE resolving of the situation is warranted.

If it costs 100,000 an airplane to replace the existing altimeters with new design, fine. Let the government use some of the 81 billion to fund the replacement program. Only cost a couple hundred million out of that 81 billion the government squeezed from the telecom folks, and of course, YOU KNOW who is going to pay for it, right? Cellular customers!

The telecoms have been bled enough already by the government.

t.

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Sounds like Airbus does not have a problem, …

With just one exception all Airbus aircraft models have two (I assume different) Radalts.

Oddly the one exception is the A380 and I have no idea why? The majority of them were bought by Emirates and perhaps they didn’t feel they needed two?

We had just one very old one in the Sea King and it’s job was to keep the crew’s wives from becoming widows when night dipping. We had to transition from 150 ft 60 knots to a 40 ft hover before lowering the sonar ball. If we were heavy (full load of fuel) and lost an engine we had seconds to cut the ball and and convert the 40 ft into forward speed before hitting the water. One dark night near Purto Rico the copilot “felt” the tailwheel hit the water and pulled up. The rest of the story is too long for this venue.

Tim

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The rest of the story is too long for this venue.

Tim

+++
+++

{Imagined}Short synopsis:

I’d rather be Lucky than Good!

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The telecoms paid 81 BILLION, repeat, 81 billion to the government for the licenses. That’s a lot of money sitting idle now until things are turned on.

The bottom line is neither group of “JCs” wants to be “burdened” by the effort and cost of resolving the issue. So they both sit on their thumbs and wail about a crisis due to the other’s intransigence.

Steve

With just one exception all Airbus aircraft models have two (I assume different) Radalts.

Seems that the triple redundant systems we used to take for granted on commercial airliners are now “optional, at extra cost”.

Steve

I noticed that Lufthansa has replaced its new 747-8 aircraft with an older model 747-400 unit that lacks a First Class cabin due to 5G concerns at US airports.

https://liveandletsfly.com/lufthansa-747-8-5g/

Odd that an old 747 can cope with 5G while the latest Jack Welch, MBA-trained product falls short.

intercst

Tim writes,

Probably because many other nations have already done the switchover with no problems?

Whenever change of anything happens in some places there are always people that go into drama overdrive … probably with personal gain or government money as the motive?

Anymouse

Problem is that US 5G signal strength is 2.5 times the EU standard. Plus, US 5G Antennas are aimed at the horizon while in the EU the antennas face towards the ground.

I don’t see how you can just automatically assume that 5G will work in the US without an aviation impact, based on the differences between the two systems.

intercst

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"Problem is that US 5G signal strength is 2.5 times the EU standard. Plus, US 5G Antennas are aimed at the horizon while in the EU the antennas face towards the ground.

I don’t see how you can just automatically assume that 5G will work in the US without an aviation impact, based on the differences between the two systems."

2.5x time power is not even 3 dB difference… Not significant. You can barely measure it and in a dynamic setting of reflections, fading, it’s trivial.

Makes no difference with panel cell site antennas. The pattern is built into the antenna and you can have down tilt with a flat vertical panel built in - and it is common RF design. The real question is so you have a 400 foot tower with more down tilt vs a 150 foot panel with lesser down tilt. The real question is the pattern (lobes) that extend up and cover the runways and approach.

The newer planes have more integrated systems that use the radar altimeters for more of the automated ‘flight controls’ so that is the concern. Older planes have separated systems.

What really needs to be done is a new design radar altimeter or ones with front end filters to reject the 5G signals - and get them produced and installed quickly in the 45% of planes that are of concern. 55% of all plane types have already been approved for operation at high level 5G cell operation.

t.

1 Like

Tim writes,

Probably because many other nations have already done the switchover with no problems?

Whenever change of anything happens in some places there are always people that go into drama overdrive … probably with personal gain or government money as the motive?

Anymouse

Problem is that US 5G signal strength is 2.5 times the EU standard. Plus, US 5G Antennas are aimed at the horizon while in the EU the antennas face towards the ground.

I don’t see how you can just automatically assume that 5G will work in the US without an aviation impact, based on the differences between the two systems.

intercst

Doesn’t 5G use a much wider bandwidth too? Ham Radio Operator but knows little about 5G.

>>>>> Doesn’t 5G use a much wider bandwidth too? Ham Radio Operator but knows little about 5G.

Well a whole lot of countries say it won’t have any affect on their RadAlts but it is possible that the US Radalts are special I suppose? I hadn’t heard there might be an issue in Canada before this article.

On that note I feel no real need to continue the circular discussion.

Nothing like waiting until the last minute to suddenly panic is there? Our guys put out a “Potential Risk Alert” last August.

Tim <not planning to fly until early March … can’t remember the last time he got on a airplane>

https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/14/5g_airliners_uk/

“The problem is that no one has ever done a comprehensive study of how good the filters on altimeters are, so no one knows how bad the problem will be.” On top of that, there’s a potential problem with directional 5G (or indeed any mobile phone) signals.

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/reference-centre/civil-avia…

Potential Risk of Interference of 5G Signals on Radio Altimeter - Civil Aviation Safety Alert (CASA) No. 2021-08