Amazon vs Walmart

…ie, Growth vs Death

A Google search for something I was wondering about (“why didn’t Walmart ever buy Amazon?”) yielded interesting results:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/14352-prediction-wal-mart-wi…

http://seekingalpha.com/article/14349-wal-mart-should-buy-am…

This guy’s predictions proved hapless more than 10 years ago, but it certainly seems he was right and Walmart was wrong. Or maybe they tried to buy Amazon and Bezos said no dice. Anyway, it’s probably a little late now.

In fact, now that 2016 totals are in, here are some numbers I found interesting:

Revenue

AMZN: 136B (Grew 27% this year)
WMT: 486B (stayed basically flat)

Gross Profit Margin

AMZN: 35%
WMT: 26%

CFFO

AMZN: 16.5B (12.1% of rev)
WMT: 31.5B (6.5% of rev)

Employees

AMZN: 341,000
WMT: 2,300,000

R&D Expenses

AMZN: 16B
WMT: 0

How many more years before Amazon’s revenue surpasses walmart? I bet less than a decade. Will AMZN’s cash flows overtake WMT’s even sooner? I think so.

Interesting, anyway.

Bear

26 Likes

If Walmart had bought amazon they would have killed Amazon as Walmart faced cannibalization of its stores with lower margin Amazon sales and they would have had no vision or idea of how to run the business much less becoming a technology hub more than a merchant as Amazon is.

Tinker

3 Likes

Amazon vs Walmart was an apples to apples comparison years ago. Now?

Walmart is a retail store.

Amazon is a retail store, plus Fresh, Prime, video streaming, AWS, cloud storage, Kindle, Echo, Fire, Audible, Twitch, Zappos, etc., etc. I’m most excited about their logistics network that will compete with Fedex and UPS.

They’re collecting so many different “taxes” it’s only a matter of time before they surpass Walmart in revenue. A really good read on all this is here:

https://stratechery.com/2016/the-amazon-tax/

-Chris

8 Likes

they would have had no vision or idea of how to run the business much less becoming a technology hub more than a merchant as Amazon is.

Oh man, can you imagine if they had though and part of the deal was placing Bezos as CEO?

I enjoyed the links, Bear and Chris. Thanks for the reading material.

Matt
Long AMZN
MasterCard (MA), Nestle (NSRGY), PayPal (PYPL), and Verizon (VZ) Ticker Guide
See all my holdings at http://my.fool.com/profile/CMFCochrane/info.aspx

1 Like

How many more years before Amazon’s revenue surpasses walmart?

I remember a time when IBM’s net profit was greater than Apple’s revenue – maybe 30 years ago.

Denny Schlesinger

1 Like

I remember a time when IBM’s net profit was greater than Apple’s revenue

I think you got something mixed up there…Even in inflation adjusted dollars that’s pretty much impossible.

https://ycharts.com/companies/IBM/net_income_ttm
http://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/15/business/ibm-earnings-up-2…

Back in 1983, one of its “largest quarterly profit ever” was $1.3 billion. I don’t know what that is inflation adjusted.

The first link shows net profits around $14 billion or so peak.

Since Apple has revenues of $215 billion last year, a bit of a discrepancy there.

Apple net profits last year was nearly $46 billion after taxes.

I would have to say, that even inflation adjusted, IBM does not come anywhere close to Apple’s net profits of today.

Tinker

I am pretty sure what Denny was saying was that 30 years or so ago - say 1987 - that IBM’s then-profits were greater than Apple’s then-revenue. Or in other words:

1987 IBM profits > 1987 Apple revenue

Matt

7 Likes

I am pretty sure what Denny was saying was that 30 years or so ago - say 1987 - that IBM’s then-profits were greater than Apple’s then-revenue. Or in other words:

1987 IBM profits > 1987 Apple revenue

Yes, that’s what I meant to say.

Denny Schlesinger

Apple net profits last year was nearly $46 billion after taxes.

I thought the FED is still looking for more taxes due from Apple for money held overseas.

b&w

one would think with Walmart’s buying power they could compete quite effectively on price, plus they can offer in store pick and return. Originally they were probably impacted by the forces outlined in the Innovators Dilemma, but by now you’d think they’d have it figured out. Their online sales grew 26% last period, we’ll see.

This guy’s predictions proved hapless more than 10 years ago, but it certainly seems he was right and Walmart was wrong. Or maybe they tried to buy Amazon and Bezos said no dice. Anyway, it’s probably a little late now.

You cannot look at Amazon today and think it would be anything close to what it is (even just the retail side) if Walmart had bought it. The Walmart management, like all old-school, b&m, long public corporations would have demanded instant profitability, or at least significant efforts in that direction. Bezos, famously, didn’t care. Walmart would have. Worse, the acquisition would have been dilutive, ramping up pressure even more.

Without Amazon e-commerce might have developed quite differently. While Amazon was not the only “new business” to eschew profits, they provided the model for it, got the VC’s enamored with the idea, allowed the entire internet bubble to expand and expand. (Not singlehanded, of course, but they were one of the brightest lights of the “new model”.)

I daresay the PtB at Walmart would have looked askance at the crazy idea to build triple the server power that was likely to be needed, or to get into the hardware business itself (Wally makes nothing, although it is happy to slap a house brand on somebody else’s factory-product.) The one big foray Walmart took was in distribution, buying McLane logistics to learn how to do it better for the benefit of their distribution centers and stores. And they have no divested that business, I believe.

Procter & Gamble didn’t invent Starbucks, CBS didn’t invent cable or the internet, heck, Walmart didn’t invent the Dollar Store or e-commerce or anything else that’s giving them fits. Corporations don’t gamble wildly, they place incremental bets in the direction they’re already going.

(And, it’s a bit navel gazing to talk about Amazon as though it was a ‘sure thing.’ It could just have easily flamed out, as thousands of other ecommerce companies did. We’re talking serious survivor bias here, no matter how smart it looks in the rear view mirror.)

32 Likes

I always enjoy stirring the pot by adding the item AMZN fans usually omit:

Net Profit

AMZN 2.4B
WMT 14.7B

Net profit percent of revenues

AMZN 1.7%
WMT 3.0%

Also interesting.

–Peter

3 Likes

Wal Mart is definitely an on line competitor. I buy stuff from them all the time though Amazon gets more of my online business. Eventually Wal Mart will decide they need to commit more talent and money into reorganizing their somewhat chaotic web site and improving delivery options. Because even the most clueless top brass must have figured it out by now.

Walmart growing 29% online sales is kind of misleading in that it is off of a much lower revenue base. In terms of online growth it is small, but much better for Walmart. How much of that is Jet?

In regard to online, Best Buy has upset me for the last time. I love shopping at Best Buy normally. Excellent products, customer reviews, delivery options, etc.

But I keep getting offers for products, go through the time to try to buy and then told “sorry this product is not available in your area.” Basically the old bait and switch.

In today’s new retail environment why even try bait and switch? Particularly when I can buy an iPad Pro $200 off at Target, I am not going to put up with being mistreated like that again. Took nearly 2 weeks to get the product from Target, but you gotta give something to get such a discount.

You don’t have this issue when you deal with Amazon. No bait and switch, and you know exactly when the product will be delivered (and often they beat that delivery date).

Amazon does have a problem, however, with “refurbished” electronics. At least with Apple products, people don’t understand that Apple basically refurbishes their products to basically new status, and other merchants are not selling the same quality of refurbished product. That is misleading.

At least with Best Buy, if the open box or refurbished is defective, you do have a 14 day return period (I had an iPad with a serious battery problem from Best Buy refurbished, and I ended up not only able to return it, but to upgrade to the mini-4 with more memory, at the same price - due to computer error at the store I think, but what the heck).

Tinker

3 Likes

“But I keep getting offers for products, go through the time to try to buy and then told “sorry this product is not available in your area.” Basically the old bait and switch.”

I tried to buy a phone on clearance from Best Buy. It was a nightmare. They sent me 2 follow up emails first telling me I would receive the phone on a certain date. Then I got another email saying the shipment was delayed and I would receive it a week later. After that date passed without notification I called the Best Buy where I was supposed to pick the phone up at, and they told me they had not received it and they did not know when it would be coming in. I called Best Buy’s customer service and they told me it hadn’t even been shipped and in fact they were out of stock and didn’t know when it would come in.
While on the phone I accessed their website and the phone was still listed as on sale and in stock. Unforgivable in a time of real time inventory.

Rob

3 Likes

None of them are perfect, I have been recently using Amazon UK to order as I am currently here working. Usually I receive items the next day plus they have many stores that act is pick up locations which is very nice as I am never home in the day. So I can pick up on the way home.

But a number of orders haven’t arrived, I am still waiting for some UA stuff:

Ordered
24 Jan
Dispatched
26 Jan
Original estimate
30 Jan
Expected by 8 Feb
Kings Store, 30 King Street, Maidenhead

It is now 24 Feb and no update.

One item was dispatched, never delivered and then I just received this:

Refund issued
A refund will appear on your original payment method in 2-4 business day

Jon - stick to AliBaba!
:wink:

Jon - stick to AliBaba!
:wink:

When I come back home…