China is actually culturally not into education. A Johnny Come Lately to college education. In other words the Chinese culture could have cared less about college education compared to the American culture. If you want or care at all about something as a culture you’d do it. The Chinese only now in a control society are trying to compete. Control society and educated are meaningless to me at least.
Google result
According to the new data, about 220 million Chinese (15 % of the population) had a college or university-level education. This highly educated share of the population increased substantially over the past decade. In 2010, only 9 % of the population had a higher-level degree.
Google result
The percentage of adults in the U. S. between the ages of 25 to 64 with college degrees, certificates, or industry-recognized certifications, has increased from 37.9% in 2009 to 53.7% in 2021, a gain of nearly 16 percentage points.Feb 1, 2023
BTW if you are going to say China needed to become wealthier to afford education that is true. That though does not mean the culture cared. Historically the culture has not cared.
The German results
What percentage of Germans have a college degree?
The percentage of professionals aged 25-34 years with a tertiary education level in Germany was 35.7 percent compared to an EU average of 41.2 percent from 2011 to 2021, a study by the German Economic Institute (IW), a private research institute in Germany, has found.Jan 26, 2023
More on American results
The proportion of adults who had com- pleted one or more years of college was 21 percent in 1970 as compared with 16 percent in 1960. More- over, in 1970, the proportion of the adults who had completed 4 or more years of college was 11 per- cent as compared with only 8 percent in 1960 (table A).Nov 30, 1970
My comment there is also an anti intellectual aspect to American culture dating back to the 1950s.
You are talking individuals being held accountable. See the difference? You are holding social groups/cultures accountable. There is no such thing. Cultures do not go on trial. Success in anything is individual achievements.
BTW AFA was overturned because African Americans were over represented. AFA insisted that the participants have the abilities to do the work academically. This means Black culture was over represented at Harvard etc according to the court.
Your assumption has been Blacks need to do better competing in academics. That was not why the AFA was overturned.
@jerryab2
I support my politicians and hate yours. LOL Nothing changes.
Heh. Birth control was invented in 1950. Between 1950 and 1970 the percent of women in the workforce went from 30% to 35%. The “women’s movement” began around 1970. In that same twenty year time span, 1970-1990, women’s participation in the workforce went from 35% to almost 60%.
They rabbleroused, they held marches, they got government to identify them as a minority group worthy of protection, they claimed onto equal-opportunity bandwagons, and they entered the workforce in ever increasing numbers. Also colleges and universities, many of which prior had considered them an afterthought.
They may have “changed their own culture” but they had a heaping helping hand of law and regulation to do it.
[I note that the statistics prior to 1970 are even less impressive when you remember that most women in the 50’s and 60’s were invited into business to be secretaries, with “can you type?” probably being the most frequently asked question in job interviews.]
Cultural changes are to ask for legal system changes.
No woman or minority individually passed a test for a Harvard MBA because of a cultural manifestation.
Besides African Americans were over represented at Harvard. Asians are over represented at Harvard. Only white males are under represented. The reasons for which we are seeing in this thread. LOL
White males need to change their culture it is failing.
I suggest respect. I further suggest studying. This should include thinking and contemplating honesty.
So what? I presented to you scientific longitudinal studies observing thousands of students that concluded that the success of Asian-American students over White-American students was primarily due to the Asians working harder. You respond with anecdotes about a few Chinese you’ve met who can’t speak English and apparently don’t work harder than average. Not really relevant.
I can only conclude that you don’t understand the topic, so let me summarize. The real world observation is that Asian American students outperform their peers in academic areas like math and science beginning from Kindergarten and continuing through high school. Not surprisingly, Asian-American students make up a disproportionately high percentage of the student populations at the elite universities and in the Silicon Valley work force. As a consequence, Asian-American lifetime income is higher than the norm.
These advantages in large part derive from aspects dominant in Asian-American culture. And yes, I realize Asian-Americans are a heterogeneous mix of ethnicities but the most successful subgroups (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Korean) make up the large majority of Asian-American students and the commonalities of those cultures is what is relevant here. Given the success on average of these students it wouldn’t be a bad thing for other less economically successful groups to copy some of that behavior, i.e, change their culture.
But since you seem to think personal experience is really important, I’ll briefly describe mine. As a parent of kids who went through the public school system in an ethnically diverse community I have had 20 years of experience interacting with students and parents. I participated in programs trying to diversify the math and science clubs. I also helped in programs trying to bring more minorities into tennis and cross country, with the idea that these are athletic activities that do not cause brain damage and can be done through most of one’s life. I’ve experienced first-hand the cultural differences that underlie the choices the students and parents make. These include African-American and recent black immigrants (from Africa and the Caribbean), who turn out to have very different cultures and as a result make very different educational decisions. I have also had many years of experience teaching and advising at the university level, and have seen many different ethnicities and cultures come through my office. Personally, I think my experiences are far more relevant on this topic than yours, but that’s just my opinion.
Oh, I agree. But what you seem to ignore is that what made these legal changes significant and impactful are the millions of women who then became doctors, lawyers, engineers, entrepreneurs, etc. It is the action of these folks who gave women sustainable respect and equality. Protesting is an important, perhaps critical, first step. But the heavy lifting is what comes next, competing with and succeeding against the dominant group. To do that one has to believe in one’s self worth and equality. Can’t do that with a Victim’s mentality, which is what Leap1 and a lot of progressives keep pushing.
Victim’s mentality? Horse spit. That is a right wing Fascist straw man which bears no resemblance to what progressives are pushing - which is equal rights and and equal opportunity.
As a gay rights organizer from the 1970’s, trained from childhood within the Afro-American potent heritage of intense civil resistance, and raised within a feminist family, I have some insight.
When you push, HARD, for equality of access your best lead by far is “I can do this if you just get out of my way.”
david fb
(victim’s mentality? tell that to the brave trans queens who launched the modern gay rights struggle by taking on hostile armed policeman with nothing more than their wigs and falsies and fury)
I think there are a lot of groups pushing the victim mentality. The extreme right and extreme left all want to be seen as victims so that they can squeeze just a little more sympathy out of whatever lemon they have. But that has nothing to do with equality and holding everyone to what our Constitution actually embodies. Freedom and liberty for all. It really is pretty simple and something that everyone should respect.
In what way is Affirmative Action equal opportunity?
Leap1 expressed a sentiment in this thread common to progressives, that holding Black-Americans accountable for negative and even self-destructive behavior is wrong, tantamount to blaming the victim. The implication is that for some reason Black-Americans are incapable of changing behaviors like reducing teen pregnancies and single-parent households (the primary causes of Black-American generational poverty) without the help of white people.
Barack Obama himself faced criticism from the Left when he stated to the NAACP to a standing ovation that Black-Americans must take responsibility for their actions:
““Now, I know there’s some who’ve been saying I’ve been too tough, talking about responsibility,” he went on. “At the NAACP, I’m here to report I’m never going to stop talking about it.” He told the crowd that “no matter how much money we invest in our communities, or how many 10-point plans we propose or how many government programs we launch — none of it will make a difference, at least not enough of a difference, if we don’t seize more responsibility in our own lives.””Obama to NAACP: Blacks must seize responsibility - ABC News
Similar criticism from the Left came after an Obama speech to a church where he argued the Black men must take more responsibility for their children:
“Too many fathers are M.I.A., too many fathers are AWOL, missing from too many lives and too many homes,” Mr. Obama said to a chorus of approving murmurs from the audience. “They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.”https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/16obama.html
He gave a similar speech to Morehouse College:
For progressives to argue as many do that to ask Black-Americans to take responsibility for their lives is unfair because they (apparently) cannot make the necessary changes without help, is to treat Black Americans as helpless victims. How is that not promoting a victim’s mentality? Good intentions doesn’t justify stupid policy.
If the Left really wants to help Black-Americans, the first thing they have to do is truly believe that Black-Americans are equal to everyone else.
I think you are being to much a generalist. Just because a few loud voices yell at the top of their lungs does not mean that everyone believes that. After all, if I was to believe your statement, than Obama is no longer a progressive. It would be much more believable if you were to say some progressives.
Your depiction of the Left in caps is an intellectually dishonest straw man starting with the assumption that President Obama was not speaking as a progressive, and the further assumption that a collection of critics on twitter represent the Left. Your stereotypes are your reality.
Don’t see how it is intellectually dishonest when the definitions of Left and progressive are pretty arbitrary and mostly a matter of opinion.
And I think the assumption that Obama was not presenting a progressive POV is pretty valid given that no progressive political leader I can think of not named Obama is asking African-Americans to act more responsibly and be more accountable. That is what made those speeches so memorable. Obama said things you don’t expect to hear from a progressive politician. Obama was progressive on some things, less so on others.
If a lot of progressives agree with Obama’s statement that Black-Americans, particularly men, need to act more responsibly, they are pretty quiet about it. That suggests that it is not a progressive position. To put it another way, I don’t think Obama’s stance on black accountability is what makes him progressive. On this issue he is a moderate.
Don’t really care. The point of this discussion is how currently disadvantaged groups, specifically Black-Americans for this thread, can compete financially and academically with the norm. If white males (an advantaged group) are choosing to become economically dependent on women, who am I to judge?
One of the major contributors to poverty is teen births. African-Americans have significantly higher teen pregnancy rates than the American norm. Unless you believe that African-Americans are incapable of controlling their sexual urges, which would be an extremely racist position, then it seems reasonable to urge more responsible sexual behavior as a strategy to reduce African-American poverty rates.
And yes, I understand that poverty and prejudice contribute to the teen pregnancy problem. But the individual cannot control the economic level in which they are born or the biases present in society. What one can control is one’s own behavior as to whether to voluntarily have sex or not. Or stay in school. Or not take/sell drugs. Or join the math club over football. One can make choices that can break the cycle of poverty.
IMO, the impact of slavery and Jim Crow have created an African-American culture that results in a disproportionate number of Blacks making bad decisions that lead to a disproportionately high Black poverty rate. To NOT point out those cultural dysfunctions seems counterproductive, if not irresponsible.
This topic has been debated to death at various times on this board. I’ll say again what I have written many times before, that I think if Black-Americans are waiting for whites to end institutional racism to break the cycle of Black poverty, it will be a very long wait. Nothing will change until there is a change of behavior/culture that reduces stuff like teen pregnancy and school dropout rates. Obama was absolutely correct when he said:
" “no matter how much money we invest in our communities, or how many 10-point plans we propose or how many government programs we launch — none of it will make a difference, at least not enough of a difference, if we don’t seize more responsibility in our own lives.”"
I suspect the issue is not race, but economic status.
A few tidbits: I ate lunch quite often at the burger place in front of my Radio Shack in Grand Rapids. The place was like a maternity ward, with pregnant young girls and others showing me pix of their spawn. They were all white. This was a lower income area.
A “single mom” and her three girls shopped my RS in that neighborhood. The mom mentioned one day that her eldest, about to graduate high school, was pregnant and engaged. They were white.
A girl I met when working in a bowling alley in 74, and her best friend, got pregnant in their senior year of high school, or soon after. They were both white, and, actually, middle class.
Seems that girls that have no ambition, and few prospects, tend to get pregnant. I would like to see teen pregnancy data, black vs white, in the same economic class.