Average doctor in the U.S. makes $350,000/yr

There is “rabblerousing” that is useful and rabblerousing that is just sound and fury signifying nothing.

The protests of the Civil Rights movement were useful in forcefully pointing out the injustices of segregation and laws that were racially biased. Reasonable people of all ethnicities could understand and agree with the outrage. Those protests changed the nation. That’s because the Civil Rights advocates kept their “eyes on the prize”.

The Black Lives Matter movement started out the same way, protesting racial biases in law enforcement and the justice system that a majority could get behind. Then it morphed into nonsense like defunding the police, taking down confederacy statues, and promoting the dubious claim that even race-neutral institutions should be considered racist if black participation is disproportionately low. As a result, the BLM movement has become a historical footnote.

Meanwhile, color-blind economic policy has resulted in Black unemployment rates moving to historical lows. I suspect color-blind efforts to improve education will result in similar benefits to black students. It is time for democrats and progressives to put an end to identity politics. While the intent might be good, it just isn’t productive.

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,I could address this entire post, not just the snipped part, but it would only be FAed, so I will restrict myself to one point: confederate statues. Those who fought for, or otherwise supported the confederacy, especially the serving officers who swore an oath to defend the Constitution, then took up arms against it, were guilty of treason. How many monuments do you see honoring Julius and Ethel Rosenberg?

Steve

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Hard to imagine that up until now corporations have been working hard to diversify their workforces, and not out of some altruistic sense but because they are being pushed into it.

As protests sweep the nation, more and more companies are announcing initiatives aimed at promoting diversity and inclusion within their walls.

Whether these promises lead to tangible outcomes remains to be seen, especially since corporations are not required to disclose statistics on the composition of their workforce, which makes tracking broad progress difficult at best.

The data that has been collected through surveys paints a picture of just how far things need to change before companies are truly representative of the makeup of society at large, and before salaries are comparable across categories like gender, race, ethnicity and sexual orientation.


They are being pushed into not because it is “the right thing to do” but because they don’t want to be caught by the “rabblerousers” or have a reasonable defense should one of their employees be caught on video disrespecting a lower caste member.

If you really think this happened “just because” and without a lot of noise from the aggrieved groups then you are hopelessly naive.

PS: Your chart demonstrates my point, not yours. If you’d like to see some “race neutral” employment statistics, try looking at the 1950’s.

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Exactly, but so polite as to not ring the bell. What you gently call “hopelessly naive” I see as the very essence of “structural racism” that can only be seen and corrected by waking people up, and they do not like to be awakened.

I was one of the first openly homosexual men to get Top Secret and other “ticketing” back in the early 70’s, and that did not happen because I was polite and civil in my discussions (which I was) with the miserable (cringing remembering the two absurdly ignorant frightened clowns asking questions that might best be thought of as authored by Beavis and Butthead consulting with Savonarola) investigators for “the agencies”. Their agencies needed me for my specialized knowledge, but far more important in getting my clearance(s) was my credibly threatening the agencies with all manner of highly publicized unpleasantness: legal, political, and public protest, if the answer was not “Yes” to my application for clearance real damn fast (years had already passed). I was the only person I knew in my situation who had been trained waaay back in the 1950s and 1960s by the Civil Rights movement (I started training in non-violent action at age 6 because my mother was worried about my strong tendencies toward furious physical rage), and so I was peculiarly psychologically ready for battle. My honor was being questioned and my character shat on by nasty obese weenies in service to an elite bureaucracy most of whom were more blackmailable than me by a long shot, but who thought themselves true patriots and me an immoral weak about to be traitor.

Evil rooted in ignorance, prejudice, and malice does not readily give way to knowledge, justice, graceful reason, nor fairness; structural prejudices yield only to threats backed by credible power. After that happens is when minds change, and not before. (E.g., 620,000 dead in the Civil War)

How many times must the lesson be repeated!!!
How many times must the lesson be repeated!!!
How many times must the lesson be repeated!!!

Really.

david fb
(getting more irascible in old age and still pizzed off)
(still have old old friends from my young days being trained at Los Angeles’ AME mother church, and they still tell me to calm down, meditate, and pray more… yes, I still have not learned my lessons despite much repetition)

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“Race neutral”? Michigan outlawed affirmative action in college admissions in 2006. That year, 6% of U of M’s student body was black. In 2021, 4.5% of the freshman class was black. Given that U of M is a primary farm for the NFL (player body 56% black) and the NBA (player body 73% black) I would suggest that the vast majority of the black students that remain are “student athletes”, admitted due to their potential to make money for the university not there to be educated.

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The corporations have to do it for another reason. Consensus. Meaning to shed supply side economics different demographics have to be called upon.

Turns out old boomers were wasting our time. Who’da thunk it? You have no industrial plan and sky high debt. What was the relationship there? Stupidity? A lot of it. Blaming the poor was childish lying.

If you need a demographic you cut them in and give them a bigger piece of the pie.

There is no war on white people. There is a war on lying ejits.

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On the contrary,if you think the noise from aggrieved groups has made a significant difference in corporate diversity then you are the one hopelessly naive.

Corporate change beyond the superficial cosmetic level occurs for economic reasons. Ethnic groups matter at the corporate level when they become economically significant. Asians are overrepresented in the Silicon Valley not because they protest a lot. It is because it turns out that hiring Asians is profitable. Conversely, you don’t see a lot of Asians in the NBA because hiring Asians in that business is not profitable. Asians can protest all they want (if they want), but their representation in the NBA is not going to change unless they as a group decide to make basketball skills a priority.

Blacks are underrepresented in medicine. That’s because few blacks apply for med school, and that’s because few blacks complete a preMed major. Protests won’t do much to change that equation. What will help is to identify the reasons why so many Black college students drop out of preMed courses and to find solutions. Less noise and more signal.

Do you also demand affirmative action for the university football and basketball teams? Why should athletics be based entirely on merit but not academics?

You can have all the protests and affirmative action you want, but those Michigan numbers aren’t going to change much as long as Michigan blacks spend more time practicing sports and less time studying math and science than their Asian and white peers. That’s not institutional racism. Those are cultural differences.

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Great. So how did eliminating statues of Lee and Stonewall Jackson reduce racial injustice in law enforcement? It was just a distraction.

Those confederate statues were there in the 1950s and 1960s as well, but they weren’t targeted by the Civil Rights Movement. That Movement had more important goals, like eliminating Jim Crow and protecting Black voter rights. The Civil Rights leaders weren’t going to dissipate their energy in trivial symbolic gestures. Eye on the prize.

The Black Lives Movement allowed themselves to be distracted by trivia. A simple lack of leadership and now BLM is history with relatively little accomplished.

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So you are thinking all xzy folks play basketball? None of them study? Where are your stats? Link please

We do not spend on educating people in America because we can get wealthy families who will pay more in college tuition. Because we can get foreign students where another country paid for most of the educational process.

We do not make things worthwhile for people.

We incentivize CEOs or they wont play the game boo whoo.

But incentivize people with a mere, “that was well done”? Not at all.

Yet in our classrooms Asian kids are being told daily, “that is excellent work”. There are studies to back that up. The expectations precede the results. Then get reenforced. Guessing blacks play basketball is not what a teacher can do to reenforce blacks in academia.

The root of our problems begin with teachers having biases.

I will rephrase that as the root of our problems is not promoting more kids in the classroom. That is a more constructive comment to make on my part. Teachers do not want to hear they fail either.

One lazy and frankly dishonest method of argument is to rephrase the other’s position in a far more extreme way. This is a great example.

I don’t believe there are significant genetic differences between the so-called races. Therefore, the large differences that are consistently seen between the participation of Asian kids and Black kids in school math clubs and football/basketball teams are mainly due to culture and environment. You get good at what you practice.

This issue is of special interest to me as I raised my kids through the public school system and the racial divide between school academic clubs versus football/basketball teams was huge and obvious at all levels of education. This was despite substantial efforts by teachers to diversify the math and science student groups. The racial divide was most apparent in comparisons between Asians and Blacks, with the former dominating the STEM clubs. Interestingly, the Black kids that did participate in the science and math competitions were typically recent immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean, strongly suggesting the role of culture in developing academic vs athletic priorities.

I don’t believe the economic underperformance of Black-Americans relative to other groups will change until there is a cultural change in the balance between academic vs athletic achievements.

The stereotype of the “smart Asian” is fairly recent, coincident with the rise of Asia as an economic competitor to the US. Prior to that, Asians suffered from the same inferiority biases as other minorities. Some may remember that a common term for Down’s Syndrome was “Mongoloidism” and watch Breakfast at Tiffany’s (an otherwise great movie) for Mickey Rooney’s infamous portrayal of how white folks viewed Asians.

Minority immigrants to America broke those stereotypes less by protesting and more by competing with the majority groups.

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Women in the US were locked out of Yale till 1974. Told to become housewives for the big men.

Google result
What is the female to male ratio at Yale?

Yale University has a total undergraduate enrollment of 6,536 (fall 2021), with a gender distribution of 48% male students and 52% female students.

The cultural change is what the teachers tell the kids consistently from a young age. That is the only difference.

What is the racial breakdown of Harvard?

Based on the Harvard diversity statistics, 39.7 percent of Harvard University’s enrolled student population is white, 13.7 percent of the population is Asian, 9.46 percent of the population is Hispanic or Latino, 6.56 percent of the population is black or African American, 3.94 percent of the population identifies as …

My comment yet 59.3% of Americans are white non Latino.

There is an outrage among some Americans about enrollment policies blaming blacks as usual. But the truth is white students in the classroom are put behind Asian students by the teachers from day one.

Google result

What percent of US population is Asian?

Because Asian Americans total about 7.2% of the entire US population, diversity within the group is often overlooked in media treatment.

Specifically I am not calling for anything at all racist or misogynistic. I am calling for better teaching practices. I am calling for an end of blaming African Americans in any fashion. I am calling for equality among the genders.

NYU Business School Professor Scott Galloway said that if NYU had its admissions entirely on the basis of academic merit, 75% of the class would be Asian females.

intercst

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You can’t be serious. Abortion rights, advances in birth control technology, and in vitro fertilization gave women an unprecedented level of reproductive independence. That freedom from the constraints of biology was an important (not sole) contributor to female empowerment that has been a growing theme in music, films, and literature. Women succeeded because they changed their own culture from one of subservience to one that simply assumes equality with males. Women succeeded because they stopped depending on men for their success.

That is the recipe for success for any minority. Respect and equality comes from being independent.

That may unintentionally be the most racist statement made in this thread. Blame means accountability. The only people we do not hold accountable for their actions are children, the mentally incapable, and the insane.

All groups, all ethnicities, have cultural issues that seem problematic. All should be held accountable for their behaviors, good or bad. To not do so for African Americans is to make a clear and obvious assumption that they are not equal. That is racism.

Look, Black-American culture grew out of slavery and Jim Crow segregation. How can it not have dysfunctional elements? Identifying those elements is the first step at solving the problems facing Black Americans. You think you are being noble by ignoring any criticisms of Black-American culture, but all you are doing is prolonging the problems.

Does anyone actually believe this? Why is it so hard to believe that the recent academic success of Asians (in select areas) is because they as a group are putting more effort into those academic areas than their peers? This is broadly observed regardless of region or school district. It is teacher independent. It is culture.

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Interesting. Yale has a higher percentage of blacks than U of M, since the (L&Ses) in Lansing outlawed affirmative action.

Found some more interesting demographics about the U of M student body:

Undergrad: 55.1% white, 16.4% Asian, 7.4% international, 7.0% Hispanic, 4.1% black.

Grad school: 45.4% white, 26.1% international, 9.7% Asian, 6.7% Hispanic, 5.1% black.

Where do the “international” students come from? Mostly China, India, and South Korea.

Back in the 70s. Whatsa Matta U had a lot of Iranian students in the engineering program. I remember one guy in particular that was in a couple of my classes. The roof of the passenger terminal at the Tehran airport collapsed. The official story from the Shah’s regime was “snow load”. Razi said to me “Don’t believe it. It was a bomb. There is a revolution coming.” The roof collapse was in December, 74. The Shah packed his trash and ran in early 79. The Iranians demonstrated against the Shah on campus, but they wore face masks to hide their identity, as they fully expected SAVAK to have agents on campus.

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I will add on the blaming of African American students why I am totally against it. Trying to tell people how their culture failed is really extremely insulting. It assumes things about that culture that are out and out stereo types. It is bigotry rationalized.

Have you read the paper or the link summarizing the paper? It is based on a 2002 questionnaire sent to teachers that showed teachers had a more positive impression of Asian-American than white students while only speculating on why that should be the case. Could it be because the Asian students as a group work harder and teachers like that work ethic? Well let’s see if that is plausible.

In a 2014, data from two longitudinal studies were analyzed. One followed about 1600 white and Asian students from Kindergarten to the 8th grade. The other followed about 3600 white and Asian students through high school (9th-12th grades). The same conclusions were found for both studies:

We find that the Asian-American educational advantage over whites is attributable mainly to Asian students exerting greater academic effort and not to advantages in tested cognitive abilities or socio-demographics. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

A follow up paper by the same authors support their original results:

We use Education [Longitudinal Study (ELS) 2002 baseline data to test our proposition that the cultural orientation of Asian American families is different from that of white American families in ways that mediate the effects of family SES on children’s academic achievement. The results support our hypothesis. Why do Asian Americans academically outperform Whites? – The cultural explanation revisited - ScienceDirect

Another study tested math and science skills of students in Kindergarten, largely eliminating the influence of teachers. The results were:

Racial and ethnic disparities in advanced math and science skills occur far earlier in the U.S. than previously known. Our new study finds that 13% of white students and 16% of Asian students display advanced math skills by kindergarten. The contrasting percentage for both Black and Hispanic students is 4%. Disparities in advanced math and science skills begin by kindergarten

Strongly suggests that Asian parents are making a greater effort to teach their kids math and science at a very early age.

In summary, the best available evidence indicates that Asian-American students on average work harder than their peers in academics and are better prepared for math and science starting as early as Kindergarten. They earned the respect of their teachers. That’s not bias. That’s merit-based appreciation. When it comes to academic achievement, Asian Americans (and Ashkenazi Jews) may have a cultural advantage over other groups.

This similarity between groups has long been noticed (unfortunately behind paywall):

Factors Contributing to the Academic Excellence of American Jewish and Asian Students Factors Contributing to the Academic Excellence of American Jewish and Asian Students on JSTOR

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@btresist

You may not know this but the Nazis had studies done of the Jews proving the Jews were intellectually inferior.

You can find what you want.

Meanwhile white Americans in elite Ivy League schools are under represented and Asians are over represented. Teachers say one thing to some kids and another thing to some kids depending on biases. If you start with support from the teacher to excel odds are you will. Even when the kid sitting next to you in the same classroom has a different expectation from the very same teacher.

It is a stereo type that Asians work harder. I have worked in an Asian family business some 30 years ago a restaurant. Cooks were shipped up from NYC. Most of the cooks did not want to work and were shipped back within days to NYC. That is no surprise among Chinese immigrants. Not everyone in the community wants a job. Never mind an Ivy League education. Many do not even want a high school education.

The Americans who think all Asians have this huge work ethic are making a stereo type. The Asians do not particularly even like being lumped together. We are talking several different nationalities. Then we are talking plain jane American parents and kids who had family in the East.

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@btresist

Just curious have you worked with a family who spoke almost no English, mostly a Chinese dialect and knew and could speak Mandarin? Did you spend years working with them and come to understand that microcosm of the culture?

What do you know about Chinese culture? I am not talking some guy with decent but flawed English at a donut store. I am talking surrounded by Chinese people who speak next to no English. Is that your experience? Or are you making things up that are commonly believed by people with little contact on a daily basis in a work environment looking from the outside in? Just assuming things?

It is called stereo typing.

I knew the father who dropped out of school in the third grade. He hated school. I knew the wife who had a 10th grade education. I knew the daughter who was helped and went to a decent college. Her parents did not help her at all. They had no English and really did not want to pay for her college. She cut a desperate deal with them. I helped her find the aide she needed financially to go to college. Her family other wise never would have let her go at all. I knew the younger son who wished he never would have had to open a book. He had learning disorders. He was ultra lazy. I knew the crude nature of what the parents said to their kids daily. How the kids hated the business and wanted out of the family. The Chinese restaurants are full of such stories. The workers had much less hope most of the time.

These were not the grounds for getting to college. But in the daughter’s case the teachers worked with her. I remember her problems with some mathematics in high school because she had not maturated enough to do the work. I remember her mother’s cruelty as she said NEVER will she go to college.

That was the second Chinese family I worked with in those days. The first had twin sons who dropped out of high school to cook in the business. The business folded. I never saw them again but I know the family moved back to NYC.

This Chinese work hard is true. The shift academically is true. Just it is not all Chinese that work any harder than anyone else. It is not many that make the shift to academics. It is when the teachers believe something that is barely true that there is support for these kids.

Very few people really end up in Ivy League schools because the number of slots is limited. When Asian Americans are over represented it is not really because Asians this that or the other. It is often that assumption by teachers that makes the difference.

The Chinese daughter in the second restaurant who went to college only did so because school was an escape from her parents and the restaurant. School was a vacation compared to her restaurant life.

Her mother was credited as being an Asian tiger mother. That was nonsense. Her mother really thought the daughter should not have gone to college. She never stopped pounding that home on her daughter.

I knew less about the workers in those restaurants but very few made it a week. Most did not want a job. Calling NYC China town was scraping the bottom of the bucket for an unemployed worker to come cook. A small percentage actually stayed in CT and worked.

I did these two delivery jobs nights after I graduated college. A combined seven years of work. The story of an artist. Just dont tell me how Asian families promote education, tiger mothers and do so much better than anyone else. These families came from Fujian China where the majority of east coast Chinese restaurants get their labor. Fujian is across from Taiwan.

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The _____ who think all ______ have ______ are operating according to a stereotype as opposed to recognizing the attributes of the individual. However, that doesn’t mean that the characterization is not valid on average. Moreover, the basis for the characterization is often cultural, not biological, as many bigots might believe.

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Problem is the “assumption” is not cultural.

Yes the Chinese Ph.Ds who come over here have kids that are college bound.

Over the last two decades the US has been taking in some Chinese folks who had very little education. Those parents have kids that are not college bound.

Worse yet about the assumption we are talking close to a dozen different nationalities and hundreds of subgroups.

American teachers simply think Asian kids will excel. That is the biggest difference.