Division within NATO Ranks

https://news.antiwar.com/2022/05/31/divisions-grow-among-nat…
France, Germany and other European nations favor negotiations over giving Ukraine heavy weapons

European officials told The Wall Street Journal Tuesday that divisions between NATO members on how much support to provide Ukraine have been growing in recent weeks.

As the war grinds on, Russia is making significant gains in the Donbas, and the leaders of France and Germany appear skeptical that Ukraine would be able to push Russia back. Other European heads of state want to send Ukraine weapons they think are necessary to reverse Russia’s gains.

Fear of WW 3/nuclear war likely and a desire to return to business as usual as sanctions also hurts the West not just Russia.

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tj,

yep the source news.antiwar is drooling.

The divisions have been ongoing. Must of it boils down the government budgets. At times the US has spent money to backfill arms shipments from one nation to Ukraine with more modern US weapons.

There are voices of fear. That also has been going on all along.

Let’s look at this, the latest shipment coming up from the US to Ukraine will be mobile missile system with a 40 km range. The fear of a wider war in some quarters is coming up. Do we want to fight a wider war? Scary.

Okay for some who need to exist on fear, scary.

In practical terms give us your opinions on Putin’s saber rattling. Does Putin want to fight a wider war?

Because if Moscow makes that mistake we will reach Putin immediately. The war might then be over in a blink…just after Putin is over in a blink. Putin really has no defenses on his person against us.

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Fear of WW 3/nuclear war likely and a desire to return to business as usual as sanctions also hurts the West not just Russia.

The rope sellers speak with their checkbooks. So, does the west sell out Ukraine for profit?

Steve

https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-folly-of-off-ramps?s=r

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In practical terms give us your opinions on Putin’s saber rattling. Does Putin want to fight a wider war?

Because if Moscow makes that mistake we will reach Putin immediately. The war might then be over in a blink…just after Putin is over in a blink.

An exchange of nuclear weapons “Would Cause ‘Nuclear Winter’ And ‘Human Extinction,’ Study Reveals”. Putin is over in a blink. So is the world.
https://www.ibtimes.com/us-russia-nuclear-war-would-cause-nu…

What could push Putin into an nuclear exchange. Let’s look at his mindset.
1)“President Vladimir Putin has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union three decades ago as the demise of what he called “historical Russia” and said the economic crisis that followed was so bad he was forced to moonlight as a taxi driver.
Putin, who served in the Soviet-era KGB, has previously called the collapse of the Soviet Union, which was ruled from Moscow, as the “greatest geopolitical catastrophe” of the 20th century, but his new comments show how he viewed it specifically as a setback for Russian power.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-rues-soviet-colla…
Russia has been reduced into a second tier power.

2)The West has expanded NATO right to Russia’s borders.
Putin in the past has railed at NATO’s triumphalism after the Cold War. He accused the U.S. of trying to destroy Russia from within. And he said it was Ukraine’s ambitions now to join the NATO alliance that had brought the threat to Russia’s doorstep.
Psychologically Putin feels pushed into a corner. Regardless if that is an accurate picture or not, Putin may emotionally believe it is true and strike out to bring down the whole house of cards via nuclear exchange. We all lose. And since the US is the #1 power in the world; we have farther to fall.

3)I assume Putin has more control over pushing the button than a US president. Though I cannot know for sure.

4)JFK lowered the heat of a nuclear confrontation in Cube by keeping a lid on hot head US generals & blockaded Cuba.

5)The current US administration seems intent on escalating the tension between itself & Russia by providing the Ukrainians with advanced medium range rockets system. Supposedly the system will be provide with short range rockets-70 kilometers. What happens if the Ukrainians are successful in pushing the Russians back in the Donbas & some hot head Ukrainian fires a rocket into Russia from the newly gained ground?

5)The current US administration seems intent on escalating the tension between itself & Russia by providing the Ukrainians with advanced medium range rockets system. Supposedly the system will be provide with short range rockets-70 kilometers. What happens if the Ukrainians are successful in pushing the Russians back in the Donbas & some hot head Ukrainian fires a rocket into Russia from the newly gained ground?

I appreciate you being the voice of calm (sincerely) but Putin has been throwing sand in the gears of the United States since he assumed power. The position of the US and the rest of the west has been for peace, normal relations, and trade, and Putin has no interest in any of that. All of our diplomatic efforts over the decades have failed. As you mentioned, he wants to reconstitute the former Soviet Union. And part of that, in his mind, includes screwing the United States.

I’m kinda tired of getting screwed. It is time to be done. Playing nice with Putin has never worked, it never will work.

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tj,

Which government officials in France, Germany and other European nations favor negotiations over giving Ukraine heavy weapons. Orbán in Hungary is a Putin puppet so he does not count for much.

Why are you constantly pushing for negotiations with antiwar websites?

Jaak

I’m kinda tired of getting screwed. It is time to be done. Playing nice with Putin has never worked, it never will work.

Pacifism has never worked, ask Neville…

The Captain

How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing.

—?Neville Chamberlain, 27 September 1938, 8 p.m. radio broadcast, on Czechoslovak refusal to accept Nazi demands to cede border areas to Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement#Munich_Agreement

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Pacifism has never worked, ask Neville…

I’m going to go to bat for Neville. He was wrong. But wrong for the right reasons. WWI was horrific. And when the smoke cleared, it was hard to identify why anyone was fighting in the first place. It was a senseless waste.

So he was eager to avoid an obvious mistake of the past of getting involved militarily for issues that in hindsight barely mattered. Plus Britain wasn’t ready for war and France didn’t want to, so a compromise and avoiding a repeat of the horrors of WWI didn’t seem so bad.

Thing is, he never understood Hitler. Rationally, Hitler would have also wanted to avoid the horrors of WWI. But Hitler wasn’t rational. Hitler wanted to create the Third Reich. Chamberlain didn’t understand that. In hindsight it was pointless to negotiate with Hitler because Hitler wasn’t a rational actor. For that reason, the very thing Chamberlain was trying to avoid wound up happening anyway.

We have the same thing here. The US and the west have been trying to engage Putin for decades with no success. It hasn’t worked before and it won’t work now. Putin is not a rational actor. Putin’s goal (as per his many comments) is to reform the Russian empire. That’s his position, and we can’t negotiate him out of it. So, time to send artillery.

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Putin in the past has railed at NATO’s triumphalism after the Cold War. He accused the U.S. of trying to destroy Russia from within.

I am so sick of hearing Putin’s victimhood story being repeated.

Did the West triumph in the Cold War? Absolutely. But we didn’t “destroy” the Soviet Union. It was a failed, corrupt state that fell apart on its own. The triumphalism has been more economic than political–how many times have you heard that the fall of the Soviet Union proves that “socialism doesn’t work.”

But, the West made every effort to help Russia rebuild afterwards. The West let Russia into the G7, let them be a founding member of the G20, gave them most favored nation status at the WTO… Western companies invested tens or hundreds of billions in developing and modernizing Russia. Western institutions allowed Russia to host the Olympics (where they systemically cheated) and the World Cup.

And even after Russia invaded Crimea, the West was still trying to bring Putin around to being a rational actor.

As far as I’m concerned, send Ukraine as many weapons as they want. They are just trying to take back their country and have never posed a threat to Russia.

Meanwhile, Putin’s lies, paranoia, and pitiful victim complex pose a threat to the whole world.

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I’m going to go to bat for Neville. He was wrong. But wrong for the right reasons.

I don’t see how your post “bats for Neville.” He is NOT being accused of malice but of incompetence “he never understood Hitler”!

A bully is a bully. Surely you met some in the school yard.

The Captain

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He accused the U.S. of trying to destroy Russia from within.

Putin has already done destroyed Russia from within. We are only trying to destroy Putin from within.

JFK was inexperienced and only meant well.

Democracies in the west do not have to “tolerate” the dictators. Forget about that.

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…the fall of the Soviet Union proves that “socialism doesn’t work.”<\i>

The fall of the Soviet Union proves that crony capitalism<\b> doesn’t work.

Putin just wants more territory to exploit.

All this talk of Mother Russia, WWIII, and poor pitiful Putin are nonsense.

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LOL. I still haven’t got formatting down.

syke6:I appreciate you being the voice of calm (sincerely) but Putin has been throwing sand in the gears of the United States since he assumed power.

Tanks, anti-tank weapons, artillery, assault weapons, ammunition etc are localized weapons punishing Russia, keeping the Ukraine from being overrun. Why escalate to include rockets that potentially can land in Russia open the door to Russian escalation?
Strategically it doesn’t make sense to me as I believe the US is using the Ukraine & Ukrainian people as a cheap way to weaken Russia so they can turn its focus to Asia & China to confront China militarily.

Why are you constantly pushing for negotiations with antiwar websites?

Jaak

Because philosophically they are in tune with me. They desire for a US that is not a unilateral
interventionist nation. These websites also opposed the Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, & Libyan interventions that turned out so poorly.

saunafool Absolutely. But we didn’t “destroy” the Soviet Union.
The US sent “experts”, Larry Summers was one, from our elite universities to instruct the Russians on a market economy when Yselsin was the leaders of Russia. Those experts helped themselves to profits & help create the environment in which the oligarchs & the eventually rise of Putin. That information is out there. One just has to look for it.

US foreign policy is largely run, or at least heavily influenced by special interests, aiding those special interests are bought government representatives & corporate owned main stream media propaganda spewers.
Just think how the wasted trillions could have improved US infrastructure. US domestic healthcare system has be subverted by hospital & pharmaceutical & banking specials interests also. They learned from the defense industrial how casting cash upon the waters buys government representatives & sets the stage for special interests to write legislation to benefit their respective interests.

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I am so sick of hearing Putin’s victimhood story being repeated.

The “big lie” seems to go a long way - a lot further than I ever imagined.

Hitler’s “big lie” was that the Jews stabbed the Germans in the back, and that World War I was lost only because of sedition from within, not that they were outgunned, outmatched, and outfought after the US joined the fight.

The South’s “big lie” is that the Civil War was a “noble cause”, and that the only issue was “states’ rights” and that they were right all along anyway. Cripes, we have military forts, schools, bridges and monuments named after seditious traitors; the biggest mountain in Georgia (taken from Native Americans) has a relief sculpture of Confederate leaders - and it’s a huge tourist attraction.

The “big lie” of Vietnam was that we were winning, and the lie persisted for years until enough kids got killed that it was unsustainable. And yet there are still people who believe we didn’t do enough, even though we dropped more ordinance on an area the size of Connecticut than all the bombs and missiles used by both sides in all theaters of war (Europe, Africa, Asia, Middle East) in World War II. Including the TNT equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Wakefield’s “big lie” that vaccines cause autism is going strong and has caused more damage and human suffering than is otherwise imaginable, even though it has been refuted by scientifically designed studies and Wakefield himself has retracted it.

There is another “big lie” at the moment which is political, but it involves “a stolen election” and a significant fraction of the populace believes it without a scintilla of evidence.

Putin is just following along the playbook of those who plays the “victimhood” big lie, and for reasons to abstruse to ponder, it works, at least for a while. (I am reminded that Stalin’s many lies were not acknowledged to, or by the Russian public until long after his death.)

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Pacifism has never worked, ask Neville…

I’m going to go to bat for Neville. He was wrong. But wrong for the right reasons.

England was not ready for war in 1938. So they threw Czechoslovkia under the bus hoping Hitler would keep his word & buy time. Their Air Force was outclassed by Germany. Spitfire & Hawk Hurricane production did not hit its stride until 1940-41 just in time for the Battle of Britain. Luckily for England Germany military was controlled by Hitler. He switched strategy in the English air campaign from attacking English fighter airfields to bombing English population centers. The battle for Britain may have turned out differently if Hitler had stayed the course.

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&am…

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The fall of the Soviet Union proves that crony capitalism<\b> doesn’t work.

It works very well in the USA though.

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tj,

Be nice if the world was at a lasting peace.

Whose terms do you want?

If we do not secure the western democracies that means there will be someone else’s terms. The first to breach would be Putin. Xi would grab permanent power in China and breach us next. The losses would be massive. In your position there is no real dealing with this.

While it might seem far off, Russia after Ukraine will approach other nations and sooner or later NATO.

Our domestic positions need to engage in this decision at the heart of it. Or you get specifically all you do not want.

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Strategically it doesn’t make sense to me as I believe the US is using the Ukraine & Ukrainian people as a cheap way to weaken Russia so they can turn its focus to Asia & China to confront China militarily.

How did the US stage this scenario? Did the CIA get Putin to invade?

The Captain

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