EV Road Trip

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
21

I’ll wait for the affordable 500 mile EV range car. And an entire network of FAST chargers country wide in every town and burg in TX.

Those scoring at home, take note: I agree with telegraph.

An EV would be fine for my putzing around town. But I take day trips in the summer. Muskegon is a 372 mile round trip. Auburn is 306 miles. South Bend is 370. Add in current drain for a/c, stereo, and, on the return leg if in September, headlights for the last 2 hours of the return trip.

If they could invent an EV that could recharge as fast as I can throw gas in the car, I would be fine. If each destination in those cities had charges, so I could recharge while exploring the destination, that would help, but none have chargers at present.

We have explored this issue several times. The problem is that liquid hydrocarbons are so well suited to transportation applications: energy dense and easily handled. Decreeing transportation as the first field to be made carbon free doesn’t make sense to me, because that is the hardest transition to make. It’s almost as if the program to reduce carbon emissions is being set up to fail.

I think I have offered before, if the objective is to reduce carbon emissions, they should convert the stationary sources first. Commercial and residential heating produces 13% of GHG emissions, industry contributes 24%, power generation contributes 25% and agriculture contributes 11%. Address power generation, and commercial and residential heating, and you reduce GHG emissions more than you would by eliminating all transportation sources, which account for 27%, and the conversion could leverage available, mature, technologies.

Sources of Greenhouse Gas Emissions

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis…

Steve

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22

You also need to add the cost of the battery in your daily cost calculations.

Sure. But my ICE car takes constant oil changes. Transmission fluid changes. Coolant changes. You get the idea. And what about the other maintenance even my rock-solid Honda’s have needed? Alternators, timing belts, water pumps come to mind.

Now… factor the cost of the battery (which is constantly DROPPING in price) compared to the rebuilding/replacing of the internal combustion engine and its transmission.

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23

A three year old EV with an original estimated range of 500 miles might see a realistic range of 300 miles if the temperature is below freezing.

Some months back there was an extended discussion here about the idea of range compromises in cold weather. Turned out that it varied enormously by the model and marque. In some cases it was trivial.

So, rather that write off the idea based on this generalization, when you get to the point that interest perks up (or criteria change), do research on what the real numbers are.

24

Yet again, do not generalize from anecdote. Yes, that guy had a bad battery. It happens. But range deterioration for Tesla batteries, at least, is much, much, much less than you think.

25

Wendy, the TESLA infrastructure is ready and completely sufficient for a majority of Americans and Europeans.

Wendy is not “a majority of Americans.” She is an individual. It is HER estimation that the infrastructure to meet HER needs is not there.

I remember hearing this “it’s good enough for most people’s everyday needs, so everyone should be eager to embrace it” back when the typical electric vehicle’s range was about 50 miles, charging time was several hours, and our typical grocery-store run was 150 miles. Now the range isn’t an issue, charging time is quite a bit less of an issue, and the grocery run is only 90 miles. BUT! if I wanted to switch to an electric car, I would also need a flatbed trailer to park it on when we’re traveling, because NONE of them are towable. And I would have to find space to park the motorhome, the car, AND the flatbed trailer. Further, you don’t find many of those fast-charging stations in RV parks, many of which still only provide single-phase 30-amp power, so that “charge while you’re asleep” thing pretty much disappears.

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26

Oh, and the article pointed out a lot of the chargers are only 24 KW…not the 55 KW super chargers…so you wait even longer.

I had to lol when I read the article and the author wrote this:

It turns out not all “fast chargers” live up to the name. The biggest variable, according to State of Charge, is how many kilowatts a unit can churn out in an hour. To be considered “fast,” a charger must be capable of about 24 kW. The fastest chargers can pump out up to 350. Our charger in Meridian claims to meet that standard, but it has trouble cracking 20.

So let me get this right. She rented an EV for the purpose of writing this article but she did no research on how “fast” fast chargers recharge and only discovered this while on the trip?
And then she can’t even explain it properly
(Note: how many kilowatts a unit can churn out in an hour is an incorrect explanation – you just need to know the kw rating of a charger OR you want to know how many kw-hours you can deliver in a given unit of time)

So we are to believe that she only discovered that the EA chargers can deliver as much as 350 kw after she was charging at only 24 kw.

I’m NOT saying that everyone everywhere should be an expert at EV charging, kw, kwh, etc. But anyone who has bought an EV or rented an EV for a multi-day trip to write an article should know a little more than a 5th grader before they go on a road trip otherwise it looks like an EV hit piece.

For Teslas:
destination chargers: 22 kw (typically free at hotels or restaurants)
Superchargers v2: 120 or 150 kw
Superchargers v3: 250 kw

Home/work L2 chargers: usually about 6 kw

Mike

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27

"I did own a Prius hybrid from 2006-2016. 235,000 miles (and the woman I sold it to is still driving it). My only major repair was a new battery- but that was most certainly a MAJOR, but at 160,000 miles, not an unexpected expense.

Loved it."

–

Have a 2007 Prius Hybrid. Gets 44 mpg around town. Nice car. Not a fun car for a 1,000 mile trip though - too small and not very good at 70 mph. So far no major repairs. Likely keep it another couple years. Only have 65K miles on it - all around town miles. Have a 2016 Chevy Malibu road car - it has 145,000 miles and gets 29 mpg. So far no problems. Oil changes/filters…nothing has failed.

You can buy hybrids that get 30-45 mpg now. Less than EVs. Plug in hybrids too where you may never use more than a few gallons a month if all your driving is local (most plug in hybrids will start the engine for a few minutes no matter what each time you use it)…you might use 2 gallons a month…

t.

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I’m NOT saying that everyone everywhere should be an expert at EV charging,

Absolutely agree! They should not need to be an expert. However, there is so much variance in charge rates out there that you almost need to be. And that will hinder adoption.

29

Wendy is not “a majority of Americans.” She is an individual. It is HER estimation that the infrastructure to meet HER needs is not there.

Point being that making such a decision based on one anecdote is not a sound basis for that position. Multiple posters here have acknowledged that EVs are good for some people and not good for others. But, many of the claims are certainly not true of Tesla and one should be aware of that difference before writing off an option. To be sure, Tesla isn’t for everyone either. For starters, there are only so many body styles available so far and one could easily have a requirement that was not compatible with any of them. Or the price may be too high. But, fact of the matter that they would work for a lot more people than people realize.

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30

tele dubiously claims: most plug in hybrids will start the engine for a few minutes no matter what each time you use it

The era of weak plug-in hybrids that rely on the gas engine along with the batteries on most trips is passing. Stronger plug-in hybrids like the now defunct Volt, or the still available Prius Prime or RAV4 Prime do not need to run the gas engine if they’ve got plenty of battery energy, and they won’t just fire up the gas engine for no reason every time you use it either. They will have an internal counter that will track how long it’s been since the gas engine has been used and it will fire up and run the gas engine every so often (weeks not days) just to keep things limbered up and running well, but my Volt only does that about once a month, so I rarely have it come on unexpectedly.

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31

You also need to add the cost of the battery in your daily cost calculations.

Sure. But my ICE car takes constant oil changes.

The cost of one or two oil changes per year is insignificant. No more than $100 per year.

But, after 8 years of ownership the Tesla owner mentioned earlier was facing a $23,000 bill for a battery replacement meaning his annual battery cost was $2,875 - a very significant cost.

The owner decided to abandon his Tesla after the electric car company told him that it would cost… just under US $23,000, to replace the battery pack… https://www.newsweek.com/video-tesla-owner-blowing-model-s-r…

In this case the battery yearly cost is a very significant $2,875.00 per year.

-=Ajax=-

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32

With that summary, I don’t even need to read the whole article. I’ll see It’sGoingUp’s response, and raise you this:

Renting an EV to drive between New Orleans and Chicago feels like a sandbag negative strawman, because that part of the country is notoriously currently underbuilt with charging.

We could play strawman all day, but here’s just one description I randomly pulled off a plugshare location in Buffalo River AR:
Open 24/7
Plugins are on the backside of the metal shop building, which faces the storage units.

Text 501-626-4418 for availability.
There is a metal shop building near the storage facility that has a NEMA 14-50 & wall plug on the back side.

A 14-50 charger will charge 200 miles in 6 1/4 hours. A wall plug…@21 hours?
So the intrepid driver would be asked to plug their car in for at least 6 hours sitting behind a metal shop after texting a random phone number to find out if the charger was actually operational and available!! Yeah, the number of people who are going to sign up for that is 1: the owner of the metal shop.

Or, some comments from another nearby site in Missouri:
Checkins (54)
View More
Jun 3, 2022
Bill BoatwrightTesla Model S
Did not work- no other chargers nearby which caused great stress as battery was low … plan was to use this one - it’s crazy with no other chargers anywhere nearby that this one does not work - I called ChargePoint and they could not make it work either activated but it did not put out any electricity at all 0 kW

May 30, 2022
DigitalCoyoteKia Niro EV 2022
Very slow to start… Waited for 10 minutes and left
May 29, 2022
Tori DTesla Model S
CHAdeMO wouldn’t connect properly to the Tesla adapter. I’ve charged here before, worked fine—even though the CHAdeMO adapters are generally a pain in the butt. But this time neither of the two would connect right.
May 1, 2022
Jeremy WebbKia EV6 2022
All still unavailable

The problem with Plugshare and ChargePoint, as noble an effort as it was, is that it was non-profit, non-standardized, and is not (yet) well supported (as is apparent and written about). It’s ok for destination charging (staying overnight somewhere), - where it works!? - but not roadtripping.

Tesla’s supercharging network is 20 (twenty) times that fast, and obviously for profit but the SC rates are less than Plugshare’s, and at current gas prices are 20% the cost of gas. Here’s one map: https://supercharge.info/map. They are always on, the failure rate is extremely low, and they’re frequently getting upgraded to faster charging (as the battery tech continues to improve rapidly to support faster charging and more kWH.

“Never” going to buy an EV? It’s disappointing to see that. It’s still early technological days for non-Tesla charging… because the oil & gas industry resists (until they get a subsidy). Imagine how much money the tens of thousands of convenience stores on prime real estate could make if they were allowed to install a couple of fast chargers each near their gas pumps. They make even more profit on the coffee, food, beer & wine while someone waits a little longer (at the moment) for a fillup, and they could likely make a killing on the commercial electric rate.

FC
yes, obviously, a Tesla owner - base M3.

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33

The cost of one or two oil changes per year is insignificant. No more than $100 per year.

Don’t forget the savings on brake pads with regenerative breaking! Do ICE car brakes put gas back in the tank? And the Global World Climate Protection from reducing brake pad particulate pollution.

The Captain

Sandy Munro says that only three US car companies will survive, Tesla, Ford, and Rivian if they get over their Production Hell and reprice their cars to profitability

Sandy Munro Warns: ONLY THESE 3 Will Survive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZatMJLJJyo

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34

Our friends recently got a BMW electric car.

For commuting, they love it.

They tried a short road trip to Liege—-about a 2.5 hour drive. Coming back took 6 hours. Chargers not available, not working, and finally taking a long time.

Probably would have been better in a Tesla, but until all the brands work, EVs simply won’t be mainstream.

My conclusion is that they are fine for commuting/2nd cars, not ready to be the primary vehicle for most families.

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35

…but Tesla has software that allows you to safely plan your trip from supercharger to supercharger…

Read an article about 5 years ago where a couple drove a Tesla cross country, NYC to LA. There was one point somewhere west of Chicago where the GPS kept telling them to turn around and return to the charging station they just left a few hours ago. Even though they knew they would reach the next station up ahead. Either a glitch in programming or they leave a margin for error to prevent creating a dead brick.

I would think there are more stations now.

JLC

36

My family and I took our Tesla from Vancouver to Osoyoos British Columbia–about a 4 1/2 hour drive with some pretty long stretches between Superchargers.

The Tesla software does a great job planning out your trip (but since you never get the advertised range, always overfill at a Supercharger).

What the software doesn’t plan for, however, is wildfires that knock out power grids!

When a huge wildfire started near our Osoyoos hotel, power went out hours before a governmental order to bug-out of the area. We left the hotel with about a half charge.

We managed to make the next Supercharger (in Princeton BC) with about 2 km of range left (we drove those 120 km with no AC or radio to conserve charge)

To be fair, gas stations in the Osoyoos region were also no working that day (but gas stations are much more available along the road).

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37

I would think there are more stations now.

The page at the link shows the growth in number of Superchargers.
2016 started with about 600. Now there are over 3500…with over 32000 plugs.
(These are worldwide…the US is about half of these, but the % is probably dropping)
Growing at 30-50% per year according the the table

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

Mike

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38

You also need to add the cost of the battery in your daily cost calculations.

Sure. But my ICE car takes constant oil changes. Transmission fluid changes. Coolant changes. You get the idea. And what about the other maintenance even my rock-solid Honda’s have needed? Alternators, timing belts, water pumps come to mind.

Nonsense!

Constant oil changes. Once every couple of years.

Transmission fluid changes. Once every couple of years, if that.

Coolant changes. I’ve done that ONCE in over 30 years of driving several vehicles

You get the idea.

Yeah, I get the idea you’re making stuff up.

And what about the other maintenance even my rock-solid Honda’s have needed?

Alternators, how many*?*

timing belts, how many*?*

water pumps how many*?*

39

“Sure. But my ICE car takes constant oil changes. Transmission fluid changes. Coolant changes. You get the idea. And what about the other maintenance even my rock-solid Honda’s have needed? Alternators, timing belts, water pumps come to mind.”

Oil changes every 8000 miles these days. Car tells you when with oil life monitor.

ALternators? Last 150-200K miles or more on decent car.

Coolant? Car has lifetime coolant…haven’t changed in six years and don’t plan to.

Transmission - same deal - recommended at 150K miles.

No timing belt on my car. Duh. But serpentine belt still good after 150K miles and won’t change till dealer says so.

mufflers and exhaust last life of car these days. All stainless…anti-corrosion…good fuel.

Electric cars? Battery cooling systems! Battery heating systems. 3 or 5 dozen computers to control everything and some will fail. Lights - they die - from headlights to turn signals. Power windows? Same as regular car. Heater? Same. Radio and electronics - lots of them and they go whacko at times. tires? Of course, tires wear out. EVs are actually HEAVIER and put more stress on tires, suspension, etc. Struts? Of course. Well alignment? Of course. Pot holes take no preference to the car type. Dings to windshield…same. Hits by deer - same.
Hail damage? Same. charge problems? Battery degradation and failure? $20,000 repair cost for dead battery?

Insurance? Might even be higher since EV replacement value higher since they cost more…and probably more to repair.

For a lot of folks…planning trips to include stops at special chargers will be a pain. Off to grandmas house with 3 charge stops on a holiday weekend. What are the odds of waiting at a charge point for six others ahead of you to take 30 min each?

Not all EVs are Teslas. Soon, others will outsell Telsa…

t

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40

Electric car put to the test in regional and rural NSW [New South Wales]
www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-06/how-practical-are-electric-ca…
I hit the highway for a 1,200-kilometre regional road trip in an electric car…I planned to charge the car at a new public charging station in Jugiong, 337 kilometres away. Leaving Sydney, the car told me I had a range of 410 kilometres, leaving me a margin of 70 kilometres. Tight, but doable.

But outside Sydney, I drove into the teeth of headwinds…Very quickly, the car started recalculating the range. It was now telling me I wouldn’t make it to Jugiong. The headwinds were drastically affecting the range of the car. Plan B was recharging at a recently installed station in Yass, 60 kilometres closer…The last 40 kilometres before Yass was a white-knuckle experience…

What I didn’t know was how long it would take to charge the car, which was almost dead flat…There’s a natural relationship between regional touring in an electric car and lunch. Instead of fast food at a highway service station, the longer charge times of electric cars lend themselves to a more relaxed schedule to poke around a small town. It is less “pit stop” and more “electric back roads”.

DB2

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