General Motors Co (GM.N) and travel operator Pilot said Thursday they will develop a national network of 2,000 electric vehicle charging stalls at travel centers to make it easier to recharge near highways.
The companies said the stations will be co-branded “Pilot Flying J” and “Ultium Charge 360”, powered by EVgo and open to all EV brands at up to 500 Pilot and Flying J travel centers. The companies did not disclose the financial investment.
Thank you GM for suddenly realizing, 10 years after Tesla started building the Supercharging network, that one of the keys to EV adoption is the ability to charge away from home.
However, Tesla is already 10,000 fast chargers ahead of you and you’ll never catch up.
However, Tesla is already 10,000 fast chargers ahead of you and you’ll never catch up.
They are definitely ahead, but things have slowly gotten surprisingly better over the years for all charging infrastructure away from home.
Anecdotally, just this week I drove our old Model S 500 miles round trip to a work conference. Normally I would rent something or take one of our company owned vehicles but I wasn’t in a hurry and it was a route I had not yet traveled via electric. When we bought our electric car over 5 years ago that trip would not have been possible in a Tesla or any other electric at the time simply due to the lack of chargers along the way. I was surprised to see other CCS charging options near the Tesla Supercharges every time I stopped. There was also easily accessible Level 2 charging near my hotel in a public parking garage for overnight charging, again something that would not have been available 5 years ago. Yes all the locations are visible in the charging apps but being out and experiencing it in real life really makes the changes sink in.
Driving electric certainly isn’t without compromise these days, but it is becoming more viable. A nice vehicle with 400 miles of range on the dash will easily meet over 95% of my miles driven every year. There should be many vehicle options with those range capabilities in the next 5 years. It will be very interesting to sit back and watch how things evolve.
“However, Tesla is already 10,000 fast chargers ahead of you and you’ll never catch up.”
Well, the industry as a whole will catch up. There’s no need for GM to do it alone.
It’s a problem, though. When I refuel one of our gasoline cars I always go to a gas station. In one year and 20k miles of EV ownership we’ve charged away from home one time, and then only for the experience.
Jeff, did you see any chargers out there which have the ability to charge your Tesla as fast as a Tesla Supercharger? If so, what company provided that service? Thanks.
Wait, one more question: what’s your average wait time to charge your car to 90% from say 10%? Thanks again.
Adrian, that one time, what was your car battery showing for power remaining? And how long did it take to bring it back to 90% charged? Thanks.
I am asking as I’m trying to find out more about battery swaps from $NIO in China vs. their new Superchargers offered at some of the same Battery Swap Stations. I have yet to find a news source describing how long it takes to charge a $NIO long range battery at one of their super-chargers instead of swapping out an almost dead battery in five minutes.
what’s your average wait time to charge your car to 90% from say 10%?
For my nearly 10yr old car, I’d say it’s 45-50mins to charge to 90%. But that’s a very edge case scenario in my experience. If I left home at 100%, drove to 10% left, recharged to 90% and drove back down to 10% that would be a ~300-350 mile trip. I rarely drive that far in a single day. Typically one would want to charge to <60% and make the hop to the next fast charging station. That’s personally why I want over 400mi from my next electric. I would be able to drive 250mi in all real world cases on a full charge and if I needed to stop I charge back to 50% in 15mins or less and go another 125mi. Anything farther than that in a single day is very rare for me.
Jeff, did you see any chargers out there which have the ability to charge your Tesla as fast as a Tesla Supercharger?
My Tesla? No. Not without some sort of adapter. But the CCS stations were all 150KW to 350KW stations and those are all higher than the maximum my old car would take. Tesla has CCS adapters available in Europe but not the US at this point. I have no devotion to Tesla and would easily consider another option with 400mi once they are available.
For my nearly 10yr old car, I’d say it’s 45-50mins to charge to 90%.
I think the big problem is a thing that EV aficionados generally ignore is that once there are a lot of EVs on the road, the charging time problem is not so much how long it takes to charge YOUR car, but the wait time while all the OTHER cars in front of you get their charge.
45 minutes is possibly acceptable. But a 90 minute or 125 minute wait until you get your 45 minutes is not. Nobody is going to (voluntarily) accept having to wait an hour or two wait before you get your turn to plug in.
I think the big problem is a thing that EV aficionados generally ignore is that once there are a lot of EVs on the road, the charging time problem is not so much how long it takes to charge YOUR car, but the wait time while all the OTHER cars in front of you get their charge.
45 minutes is possibly acceptable. But a 90 minute or 125 minute wait until you get your 45 minutes is not. Nobody is going to (voluntarily) accept having to wait an hour or two wait before you get your turn to plug in. – Rayvt
So far in my travels, I’ve only had to wait once (for about 5 minutes) for a Supercharger for a Tesla. And that was in an area with few SCs (metro Detroit). I hope Tesla doesn’t ruin the experience for Tesla owners when they open up the system for non-Tesla owners.
And here’s an example of charging. Tesla has a trip planner. For me to drive from our home in the Charlotte NC area to Panama City Beach FL is about 557 miles. It recommends three stops for charging. Duration: 10 minutes, 20 minutes and 40 minutes. We’ll stop for lunch/restroom for the long one. That is keeping max charge at 85%. I could probably avoid that 10 minute stop if I charged to a higher level.
Rob
Former RB and BL Home Fool, Supernova Portfolio Contributor & Maintenance Fool
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
I think the big problem is a thing that EV aficionados generally ignore is that once there are a lot of EVs on the road, the charging time problem is not so much how long it takes to charge YOUR car, but the wait time while all the OTHER cars in front of you get their charge.
45 minutes is possibly acceptable. But a 90 minute or 125 minute wait until you get your 45 minutes is not. Nobody is going to (voluntarily) accept having to wait an hour or two wait before you get your turn to plug in. – Rayvt
I wonder if anyone has estimated how many chargers would be needed to handle holiday traffic if all light vehicles were EV’s?
And how much of the holiday 3 day weekends would be spent at chargers instead of with family or on short vacations?
Or if mass evacuations of coastal areas would be possible - e.g. from an approaching hurricane? I recall that Houston couldn’t handle it even with ICE’s.
Basically I guess I’m questioning how well this change to EV’s has been thought through.
I think the big problem is a thing that EV aficionados generally ignore is that once there are a lot of EVs on the road, the charging time problem is not so much how long it takes to charge YOUR car, but the wait time while all the OTHER cars in front of you get their charge.
The solution is to use an app that tells you where open chargers are located. Thing is, most people won’t own an EV unless they can charge it conveniently, like at home or at work. So using a remote charger is only common on long trips and waiting 45 minutes isn’t a big deal because you have to stop a certain amount regardless. This is also why I think the battery swap model is a loser. Most of the time you just don’t need it.
For me, 45 minutes is not acceptable. I’ve done it a few times over the last five years and it’s a true annoyance so I will typically drive one of our gas cars for trips over 150 miles. That is really the reason range is the key variable for me in the whole equation. If I can reliably drive 250 miles on a full charge any day of the year then stopping to charge becomes a non issue for me >99% of my travel days every year. And if I can stop and pick up another 125 miles in 10-15 minutes that is acceptable because the human body needs to get out of the vehicle occasionally for a variety of reasons. Driving over 375 miles in a day is an extremely rare occurrence for me and I would likely fly in most instances.
Queueing is not acceptable. I live in the midwest so queueing has never been a problem for me.
What is really hard for those that have never driven electric to comprehend is the fact that stopping to charge away from home is a rare occurrence even today. The gas station mentality becomes irrelevant most of the time other than those basic human body needs. Give me a vehicle with 250 miles of range and I would probably have less than 10 total days out of the year I would need to make a stop away from home to charge and it would be only 10-15 minutes which I would find acceptable.
Queueing is not acceptable. I live in the midwest so queueing has never been a problem for me.
Queueing doesn’t happen now because there are so few EVs on the road. That will change when a substantial percentage of the cars are EV. You can see this in a few youtube videos that show 10-20 or more Teslas lined up for a charger at a busy time. Search for “tesla lined to charge” at youtube.
[One of the comments on one video was “This was shot on the Sunday after Thanksgiving three years ago.”]
What is really hard for those that have never driven electric to comprehend is the fact that stopping to charge away from home is a rare occurrence even today.
Just who is going to build out a huge population of public charging stations when EVs are almost always charged at home? How would they cover the cost and make a profit with very few customers?
I don’t understand that thinking. “We need to build out a network of chargers but almost everybody charges at home and won’t use that network.”
Queueing is not acceptable.
Not acceptable for people in gas cars, either. When I go to Sams/Costco the only times there is a line at the pumps is on weekends when they are busy. Even then, the line never gets more than 2-3 cars, because people won’t join the line if there are already 2-3 cars already waiting.
“Adrian, that one time, what was your car battery showing for power remaining? And how long did it take to bring it back to 90% charged?”
Maybe 40% and we only charge to 80% normally. We didn’t leave it on the charger long enough to get to 80%. It was at a shopping mall. The shopping task was done and charge level was more than enough to get home so we left. Our car is sloooow to charge, 50kW IIRC. 66kW battery, so 40 to 80 should take about a half hour.
Our car is not a road trip car, and we didn’t buy it for that. It has about 250 mile range. Charging to 80% is fine for out daily use. For road trips we take the van.
When we replace the van we’ll be looking for a plug in hybrid. One EV and one plug in hybrid would suit us very well.
Basically I guess I’m questioning how well this change to EV’s has been thought through.
I’m just guessing that only a moderate amount of thought has been put into it.
But this is far more thought than was given to the use of petroleum and the subsequent problems it has caused, including climate change, middle east unrest, OPEC, oil spills, etc.
It doesn’t take too much creativity to think of a solution or two.
Initially, gas came in cans purchased at the hardware store. Then we had stations with a couple of pumps. Now we have stations with a dozen or even more pumps.
Initially we had charging stations with 1 or 2 cables, then 4 or 8. We now have them with 20 and 40 cables. I’m not sure where else, but in Kettleman City there are 40 fast chargers…and they just added 55 more a couple of blocks away, but there are still many more gas pumps.
I can see 5 or 10 years from now (maybe less) that you will be able to reserve a charging location – for a price… or maybe get a 10-pack of reservations with the purchase of a new car.
I can see multiple competing stations having different prices. Maybe even post them on big signs out front! You might opt for a slower cheaper charger if you are going to stop for a sit down meal or get $10 off your charging with purchase over $50.
I can see locations where there are 2 or more parking spaces per charging cable with a digital sign above the in-use charger showing how many minutes remaining. Other signage for the queue might direct an arriving car which space to drive to.
Lots more could be done with just a little thought.
Pro tip. (I’ve already suggested this to Tesla). 2 or 4 Tesla Superchargers share the same power supply. So two 250 kw chargers cannot both get 250 kw at once. Digital signage above an in use charger could help a new arrival to pick someone to park next to that has been there a while so they start out with a higher charge rate.
I think the ideal setup for a two car family is to have one electric car and one plug in hybrid car. Both would use no gas on short trips. The EV would be great on a mid range trip. The PHEV would would come in handy for a long range trip.
From one point of view, even better would be to have just one hybrid and be done with it.
Then, with the same amount of currently scarce battery material, another 2-5 families could have the same, and nobody gets range anxiety.
A long range battery-only vehicle is nice, but in one sense it’s a waste of resources.
Most cars aren’t driven more than 30 miles in a day on average.
"The Emissions Analytics report shows that plug-in hybrids that rely mostly on batteries in their daily driving cycle–the Chevrolet Volt, for instance–saved the same amount of CO2 emissions as fully electric cars in their tests: 210 grams per kilometer. But they required much smaller batteries, just over one-sixth the size"
Everybody has an agenda, so that gets a grain of salt like everything else.
But there is a certain case to be made that hybrids make more sense in the next 20 years if your
main goal is mass adoption and maximum global reduction in emissions for the materials and infrastructure at hand.
That might not be one’s only goal–pure EVs are much better for virtue signalling : )
It doesn’t take too much creativity to think of a solution or two. Initially, gas came in cans purchased at the hardware store. Then we had stations with a couple of pumps. Now we have stations with a dozen or even more pumps.
People are often stuck on the current gas station model when they think of recharging facilities for EVs. IMO, that doesn’t make any sense when your recharge times are lengthy (even 15 minutes doesn’t make sense for the gas station model). What does make sense is the McDonalds model, where chargers are liberally sprinkled throughout restaurant parking lots. You are going to spend 30 to 60 minutes eating lunch or drinking coffee anyway, so might as well recharge your car while you are recharging yourself.
From one point of view, even better would be to have just one hybrid and be done with it. <\I>
I tend to agree plug in hybrids make the most sense if one’s goal is emissions reduction. I’m rather indifferent to all that but I understand why it get’s the focus most of the time. The engineer in me really doesn’t like the added complexity of the dual drivetrains. And after not having to deal with the needs of a gas powered/oil lubricated vehicle for at least one of our cars over the last 5 years I just really like the simplicity.
And every electric I have driven has been a heck of a lot of fun to drive. Driving a gas powered car with laggy torque and transmission shifting is a real buzz kill after the instant acceleration of electrics.
For my family the overall ownership experience of electric is just better with the exception of the current range limitations.