Financial infidelity

For me, honesty is one of the most important values in any relationship, especially a marriage. My first experience (thankfully, vicarious) of the destruction caused by financial infidelity was a co-worker in my office whose husband ran off with another woman, but completely drained their joint account just before he did. That left her both without a husband and also financially destitute.

I don’t know anything about how that woman’s sad story continued, since we weren’t close, but it was a shocking wake-up call to me. I learned from her experience to maintain control over my own money no matter how much I love my husband. (Which I do, deeply.)

Apparently, there are many forms of financial infidelity even if the spouses are physically faithful to each other.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/15/business/money-secrets-ch…

**Their Cheating Heart, Your Damaged Retirement Plan**

**Financial infidelity destroys trust. It can deliver a serious blow to your post-career planning, too.**
**By John F. Wasik, The New York Times, April 15, 2022**

**...**

**Financial infidelity is a many-headed beast: It could be debts accumulated before a marriage that go undisclosed, a secret account, unbridled credit card bills or money problems triggered by substance abuse or a gambling addiction.**

**In a recent survey conducted by the National Endowment for Financial Education, a surprising number of spouses admitted to having been financially unfaithful. Two in five people polled said they had “committed some act of financial deception,” and 85 percent of those people said the indiscretion affected the relationship, with the effects varying from the low level — an argument — to separation or divorce....**

**The leading forms of financial deception, according to the endowment’s poll, were hiding bank accounts, statements, bills or cash from a partner or spouse. One in five people said they had lied to their partner when dealing with finances, debt or income.... Extensive research shows that conflicts over money are one of the leading causes of divorce. ...** [end quote]

The article discusses bankruptcy, job loss resulting in penalties on a 401(k) loan and other situations, with an emphasis on how the mess can interfere with saving for retirement. The author suggests professional psychological, marital and financial counseling.

Community property states will have a different situation than non-community property states. DH and I lived together in a non-community property state (DE) for 5 years before marriage. I set up a joint account for household expenditures such as food, utilities, insurance, etc. but have carefully maintained our separate assets since then even though we were married in 1993. I still transfer equal amounts of money from our personal accounts into our joint account every month. We each have complete separate control over our personal accounts. My Revocable Living Trust (situs in DE) owns the house. In the unlikely event of divorce, our assets could be cleanly divided since I have scrupulously avoided cross-contamination.

One study showed that, after divorce (on average) the man’s standard of living increased 20% while the woman’s declined 60%. On the other hand, I have read anecdotes from men who said they lost significant assets as a result of divorce.

Financial infidelity is an ugly subject, much like physical infidelity. “Trust, but verify” is one approach. Another is to set up the assets (with clear ownership of assets and/or a pre-nup) so that a betrayal of trust won’t result in financial disaster.

Wendy

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On the other hand, I have read anecdotes from men who said they lost significant assets as a result of divorce.

Reminds me of an old joke.

A man is going home after a long business trip and wants to buy a gift for his daughter. So he goes into a toy store and starts to shop for a Barbie Doll. He notices that Attorney Barbie and Doctor Barbie and Tennis Barbie and Cheerleader Barbie and Race Car Driver Barbie and Musician Barbie and Bride Barbie all cost $25 but Divorced Barbie costs $250. So he asks the manager why Divorced Barbie costs so much more than the other Barbie dolls.

Well, the manager says, Divorced Barbie comes with Ken’s car, Ken’s house, Ken’s golf clubs, Ken’s tools, and Ken’s motorcycle.

AW

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A friend has Bipolar Disorder (BP).

As an LBYM, I just am amazed at his financial choices.
A few years ago, I was able to talk with him about prudent financial decisions. He’s done Dave Ramsey. He KNOWS all the right words, phrases, and concepts. He has ATTEMPTED most of them! He has been successful a couple times…
But, BP torpedoes money management.

Bipolar Wellness Center - Money
https://bdwellness.com/life-areas/money/#:~:text=Bipolar%20d…

My friend does compulsive buying (primary problem), and compulsive gambling via scratch offs (occasional problem).
I estimate he pays 25% of his monthly income to service his CC debt.

Our shiny financial (and legal) services PREY on folks with mental issues.

I’ve wondered how much of the profits from scratchoffs are $$ skimmed from people with mental disorders, mania and depression.

“Buying” (IMO) gives my friend a sense of control, and accomplishment. Which can (maybe) lift him out of depression/sadness.
He apparently CANNOT “see” the consequences of such “impulse” buys.

BP (and other mental illnesses) is complicated.
But the problems related to debt and no money are still severe, which helps to cycle him into another round of mania and depression.

:thinking:
ralph - who thinks my own mental illnesses are too mainstream for diagnosis?

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ralph - who thinks my own mental illnesses are too mainstream for diagnosis?

The only mental health problems that get any attention in the US are those of the wealthy, and those who are dangerously violent. The police administer therapy to the latter at the end of a service firearm.

intercst

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Financial predators, dressed up as spouses, are common.

I was talking with the CFO at work one day. Somehow the topic of the company having runners deliver paychecks to job sites came up. The CFO said that some employees refused to use direct deposit, because their spouse would drain the money out of the bank account before the person who earned the money got home from work that night.

One of my coworkers was great for butting into conversations that did not concern her. One day, she overheard me telling someone else that I would not consider marriage without a pre-nup. Deb, whose daughter was engaged, butted in to say that she had told her daughter than if her fiance ever said anything about a pre-nup, leave him. A couple years later, Deb got married. Her new husband’s home was in Florida. Deb stopped by the office one day. How did she come to be in the Detroit area, when her husband’s home is in Florida? She had spent the entire summer with her mother. One change in Deb’s lifestyle: her old 100,000+ mile Civic had been replaced by a new, top of the line, Grand Cherokee. I envisioned her husband coming home to an empty house, and saying to himself “I keep telling myself I’m married, but the only evidence of that is money keeps disappearing from my bank account”. Deb’s actions confirmed what her earlier tirade about pre-nups implied: to her, the most important thing about a man was being able to take his money.

Zsa zsa Gabor once said words to the effect “I’m a wonderful housekeeper. Every time I get divorced, I keep the house”.

Michigan is apparently a community property state. A coworker of mine at RS said that he had paid for his house entirely out of his earnings. When he got divorced, he had to pay for half the house again, his ex had a big pile of money handed to her by the court, for doing nothing.

Which brings us to this bit in the OP “but completely drained their joint account just before he did.” Who earned the money in that joint account?

Steve

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Who earned the money in that joint account?

I hate to get serious, but I will for a minute.

Ms. Wolf’s degree is in social work, so you can imagine what she earned. I had a master’s degree and a professional license (thanks in big part to her support while I finished school).

We also decided that she would stay at home until our 2 children were in school, which further impeded her earnings. We knew it would hurt us financially, but neither of us regret the decision.

So technically, I earned 95% of our retirement money, but in reality, it was a team effort. As I’m fond of saying, Ms. Wolf’s money is her money and my money is Ms. Wolf’s money.

If we were to divorce (doubtful as neither of us could afford a divorce attorney) we would split everything 50-50.

There is no way I would have had the life and family that we have without each other. I’ve seen lots of ugly divorces, so maybe we were just lucky. But we both earned every penny we’ve saved.

Well, maybe she earned more of it because she’s such a damn tightwad, but I still like to think we did it as a team.

AW

26 Likes

<Who earned the money in that joint account?>

I don’t know. But the wife had a full-time corporate job so her contribution was more than zero…which is what her husband left her.

Wendy

Well, maybe she earned more of it because she’s such a damn tightwad, but I still like to think we did it as a team.

I’m gland you have a functioning partnership. Walk a mile in my sneakers and you will realize how many gold-diggers are out there. My coworker, Deb, was the same age as me. She married the guy from Florida at age 52, after years of whining in the office about how broke she was. After the marriage, she didn’t work. Spent the entire next summer living with her mom and driving around in that new Grand Cherokee. She absolutely took that guy for a buggy ride. And, based on Deb’s previous comments, it’s probably safe to assume there was no pre-nup, so, if the guy got tired of the buggy ride, Deb could divorce him and walk off with half of everything he had in the world.

Steve

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Steve, it’s remarkable how different people interpret anecdotes.

I look at broad statistics first. There’s no question that marriage is beneficial especially for men. Here is a very large study based on Medicare health outcomes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7452000/

**Life expectancy and active life expectancy by marital status among older U.S. adults: Results from the U.S. Medicare Health Outcome Survey**

**Previous investigations of the relationship between marital status and life expectancy and healthy life expectancy rely on the assumption that participants will remain in a given marital status until death. This study estimated total life expectancy (TLE) and active life expectancy (ALE) for respondents by their baseline marital status using a large longitudinal sample of the U.S. community-dwelling elderly population.**

**Data were from the Medicare Health Outcomes Survey Cohort 15 (2012 baseline, 2014 follow-up). We included respondents aged =65 years (n = 164,597). Multi-state models estimated TLE and ALE by marital status to allow participants’ marital status to change during the remaining lifetime.**

**Results**

**Between 65 and 85 years, married men and women had a longer TLE and ALE than unmarried men and women. For example, at 65 years, TLE for married men was 18.6 years, 2.2 years longer than unmarried men, and ALE for married men was 12.3 years, 2.4 years longer than unmarried men. Similarly, at 65 years, TLE for married women was 21.1 years, 1.5 years longer than unmarried women, and ALE for married women was 13.0 years, 2.0 years longer than unmarried women. ...**

**In subgroups of unmarried persons, never married persons had the shortest TLE and ALE among men...** [end quote]

Given this data, and reading your anecdote of your parasitic female co-worker, I would conclude:

  1. Marriage is beneficial for both spouses, but especially for men. Older people often have temporary physical problems which can be difficult to handle alone. A fit spouse can (and usually does) take care of the disabled spouse until recovery. Men are less eager to get preventive medical care so they are more vulnerable. I can attest to the difficulty of pushing a husband to get his annual checkup – but he eventually does. I also feed him good home cooking where he tends to eat processed foods on his own.

  2. Intelligent people learn from others’ mistakes instead of making their own. (As I did when I observed my co-worker’s husband abscond with their joint account.)

  3. Intelligent people maximize the benefit while minimizing the risk. This includes checking out a potential spouse carefully for an extended period of time before marrying. And taking precautions to guard against potential problems when marrying. But not to reject the entire concept of marriage on the basis of a single (or even multiple) negative anecdotes when the broader data says that marriage is beneficial.

People who have a college education are significantly less likely to divorce than people with a lower level of education. This probably has several factors.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/12/04/education-a…

Wendy

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Walk a mile in my sneakers and you will realize how many gold-diggers are out there.

Why are most gold-digger stories have the woman as a gold-digger?

PSU

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Why are most gold-digger stories have the woman as a gold-digger?

Probably a little bit of gender bias operating there. And a bit of terminology. Male gold-diggers are often called gigolos. A slightly fancier name for the same thing. Plus more gender bias.

I have a client that I’ve often thought must be a gigolo, although he’s only a couple of years younger than she is. It would not be wrong to call him a gold-digger.

–Peter

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Walk a mile in my sneakers and you will realize how many gold-diggers are out there.

If I walk a mile in your sneakers, I’ll have a mile head start and you won’t have your sneakers - you’ll never catch me!

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Why are most gold-digger stories have the woman as a gold-digger?

You want equal time? OK.

My dad was a college graduate with a white collar job. He was also totally incapable of handling money. No matter how much money he had, he would spend more.

In the late 60s, he remarried. Before the marriage, he was constantly talking about how Peg’s dad made a fortune in oil in Edmonton, bought a new Lincoln every year. After the marriage, all he talked about was what a spendthrift Peg was, burning through her money (Peg worked as a teacher), piling up debt, and now, she was burning through dad’s money indulging herself, before dad could blow it indulging himself.

After dad told me he was getting married to Peg, I hung up the phone and laffed. Told mom I gave it a year. I was right.

Years later, mom had retired and moved to Arizona. She called me up one evening. She had received a letter from dad. He had gotten her address from one of his relatives that mom still exchanged Christmas cards with. Mom read the letter to me, and the signature “love, Paul”. She said to me “he’s after something”. I said “of course. he’s blown through all his money, and is figuring ‘that old tightwad, Margaret, probably has plenty’”. Mom and I agreed best to not respond to the letter.

A few years later, I got another phone call. Dad was in the hospital, and the hospital needed someone to sign the release so they could take him off life support. The word came by a circuitous route, from his relatives in NJ, via mom, to me. Mom said something along the lines of my receiving an inheritance. I said “the only thing I will inherit from him is debt”. I was right.

Yes, plenty of parasites wear pants.

Steve

1 Like

”Why are most gold-digger stories have the woman as a gold-digger?”

Everyone seems to be missing the real reason - the fact is that men have most of the gold.

Changing a bit but still pretty much true.

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For example, at 65 years, TLE for married men was 18.6 years, 2.2 years longer than unmarried men, and ALE for married men was 12.3 years, 2.4 years longer than unmarried men.

There’s an important lesson here gentleman.

If you want a long, slow death, get married.

:slight_smile:

AW

12 Likes

I said “the only thing I will inherit from him is debt”. I was right.

Not unless you cosigned for it.

I’m always astonished at these stories of families struggling to pay off the debts of the dearly departed that they’re not responsible for.

intercst

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<After the marriage, all he talked about was what a spendthrift Peg was, burning through her money (Peg worked as a teacher), piling up debt, and now, she was burning through dad’s money indulging herself, before dad could blow it indulging himself.>

Now I understand the roots of your antipathy toward marriage. We all naturally generalize from our own family experience.

My grandmother (father’s mother who taught me about investing and so much else about life) said, “Some people are givers and some are takers.”

A relationship between two givers (who each derive pleasure from the other’s happiness) is a contented relationship even if it has ups and downs. A relationship between a giver and a taker is exploitive and should be avoided by the giver. A relationship between two takers must be hell. Fortunately, I have never witnessed this myself.

Wendy

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They say married men live longer, but I bet it seems a lot longer.

intercst

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Not unless you cosigned for it.

Not on your life. That didn’t stop the credit card companies trying to collect the thousands he was into them for. I remember the letter from one of them, saying the debt “needs” to be paid, and demanding to know if there was life insurance. What they got was a copy of his death certificate, and nothing else. I was not about to pay for his profligacy. The hospital tried to put the bite on me too, on top of what Medicare and his retiree medical from work paid. Nope.

Steve

Steve203 writes,

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Not on your life. That didn’t stop the credit card companies trying to collect the thousands he was into them for.

Exactly!

Our whole economic system is based on keeping the average person ignorant of law, finance, and especially taxes.

intercst