Weren’t they banned for new construction in CA? There was some blurb a few months ago?
The California Air Resources Board unanimously voted in September to ban the sale of natural gas-fired furnaces and water heaters by 2030. Consumers who want to switch from gas to electric ranges could get some help from the massive climate spending bill signed into law in August.15 hours ago
U.S. safety agency to consider ban on gas stoves amid health fears.
Does that cover stoves as well?
DB2
Not seemingly…but is part of clean air in the home…and the fact that NG is getting used up, the costs may go higher and higher in relative terms and by 2030 nominal terms.
That splits in three what I have been saying about lower gas and NG nominal costs as the western currencies appreciate during this period along with negotiations by the Western Cartel. We will see lower prices now. But further out we will see slight inflation over all in commodities. The issue is can our factory output make that cost to society relatively less. I think so. But by 2030 NG supplies will be different.
Gee. If all gas appliances were banned, the “news” would not have so many exploding houses, and people killed by appliances leaking CO, to chatter about.
The project TOH did in Atlanta recently used a heat pump water heater, which dramatically reduced the operating cost, vs an electric heater.
Steve
Yes, I can attest to that. But heat pump hot water heaters are ridiculously expensive. It’s absurd because they are relatively simple devices. Seems like the manufacturers are attempting to cash in, up front, on much of the reduced operating costs over the first few years. I snagged a very cheap heat pump HWH because it was. being discontinued … and, well, the quality isn’t great so I can see why this company couldn’t make it.
Geothermal heat pumps with a sizeable ground leg are said to be most economical, but digging costs make them costly.
According to this 2020 report by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) households with electric stoves reported fires at a rate 2.6 times higher than those with gas stoves. In addition, the death rate of electric-run households was 3.4 times higher than those with gas appliances — and the injury rate was almost five times greater.
It seems there are always tradeoffs.
DB2
We’ve had a heat pump water heater since 2017. I track our electricity usage and we have used at least 20% less since we installed it. As a side benefit it also dehumidifies our basement.
Speaking of water heaters, tankless gas water heaters were becoming a big deal here in Austin the last few years. Why keep water always hot when you can just heat it on demand? Its a great idea, except the massive cold spells the last few winters have wreaked havoc on them. Usually they are installed in garages or attics. In other words, in unheated spaces. And they end up freezing up (because they are not keeping the water hot, of course).
Seems a simple solution honestly – run the heater in the tankless system just enough to keep water from freezing.
That is an interesting tidbit. Can’t imagine how that could be, other than the report’s observation that it is not as obvious when an electric element is on. The report also notes that electric coils are slow to cool after being turned off. Gas burners have a cast iron grid over the burner. How does the cooling rate of an electric coil compare to that of the cast iron grid on a gas stove?
Of particular interest is the experiment run by a fire department in a senior apartment complex. The complex had a history of 12 cooking fires per month. The FD installed temperature limiters on the electric coils. Over the next 10 months, there were zero fires. Wonder if there is a difference in cooking time, if the coil is limited to under 450 degrees?
Steve
That was my guess.
DB2
Thing is, my electric range has a pilot light that comes on when a coil is on, and that range is 40 years old. What do people need? A light in the coil itself that lights red when the coil is on, yellow, when the coil is off, but still hot, and off when the coil is cool? That would probably have people in an uproar, the people who refuse to read the owner’s manual, then have a hairy fit when something does not work the way they assume.
Steve
It would be interesting to see if they controlled for wealth or income of home owner if the results would be the same. I hypothesize that electrical fires are correlated with income/wealth and gas ranges are more likely to be found in homes vs apartments because of the added cost of installing gas lines.
Another tradeoff is higher indoor air pollution with gas appliances.
Jaak
Right now, I don’t recall what sort of range I had in my apartment at Alpine Village. When I lived at Wingate, I had a gas range. I distinctly remember it was gas because the burner would tend to backfire through the ignition tube and blow out the pilot light. By the time I got home from work, the apartment would be full of gas. I remember the news reporting a fire at Wingate a few years after I moved out. Google pulls up two more fires in that same complex: one in 2015 that was put down to careless smoking, and one in 2018, in an unoccupied apartment.
My apartments at Kilgore Downs and Fairway Club had electric ranges.
The thing about range choice in apartments is also one of billing. In every complex I ever lived in, electric service was billed to each apartment separately, but gas was “included in rent” as hot water and, usually, heat, were all from a central boiler in the building.
My present condo has gas furnace, water heater and dryer, but electric range.
Steve
I’m not sure why anyone has a gas range with a pilot light. Mine has a sparker that lights it when you turn it on.
As for people possibly leaving an electric range turned on and forgetting it a simple solution would be to beep (like a fire alarm, but maybe quieter) if it has been on high for 20 minutes, or med-high for 30 min, etc. If you really need need it on more than that you have to push a reset button. Maybe it auto turns off after another 5 minutes. Simmering for a long time is allowed
Mike
I had that apartment in the late 80s. It was probably built in the 70s. The gas water heater in my condo now, is about 8 years old, and has a standing pilot light. Unlike the range in the apartment, the water heater has a thermocouple that cuts off the gas valve if the pilot goes out.
Steve
This summer I saw Trinity University Dublin putting in a system.
Everything is costly. Doing nothing is not cheap.