Higher education for men lagging trend

In 1970, when I started college, higher education was stacked against women and minorities. White men were the vast majority of students. Heroic efforts were made to include women and minorities in higher education in later decades.

Fast forward to 2022.

The heroic efforts were successful. Too successful.

Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

At the close of the 2020-21 academic year, women made up 60% of college students, an all-time high, and men 40%. U.S. colleges and universities had 1.5 million fewer students compared with five years ago, and men accounted for 71% of the decline. In the next few years, two women will earn a college degree for every man, if the trend continues.

The college gender gap cuts across race, geography and economic background. For the most part, white men—once the predominant group on American campuses—no longer hold a statistical edge in enrollment rates, said Mr. Mortenson, of the Pell Institute. Enrollment rates for poor and working-class white men are lower than those of young Black, Latino and Asian men from the same economic backgrounds.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-…

**A Generation of American Men Give Up on College: ‘I Just Feel Lost’**
**The number of men enrolled at two- and four-year colleges has fallen behind women by record levels, in a widening education gap across the U.S.**
**by Douglas Belkin, The Wall Street Journal, Sept. 6, 2021**

**...**

**Social science researchers cite distractions and obstacles to education that weigh more on boys and young men, including videogames, pornography, increased fatherlessness and cases of overdiagnosis of boyhood restlessness and related medications....**

**Men dominate top positions in industry, finance, politics and entertainment. They also hold a majority of tenured faculty positions and run most U.S. college campuses. Yet female college students are running laps around their male counterparts....**

**The young men who enroll lag behind. Among University of Vermont undergraduates, about 55% of male students graduate in four years compared with 70% of women. ...** [end quote]

I lived through the feminist revolution. I subscribed to Ms. Magazine in the 1970s, but ultimately dropped the subscription because I felt they were anti-male, while I worked in a traditionally male career but respected and enjoyed men. That was 50 years ago! Yikes!!

My personal opinion is that the feminists “won the war” over 20 years ago. With all the best intentions in the world, American society has transformed to become detrimental to young men. I don’t think the special efforts to encourage and educate young women should be diminished. Rather, I think similar efforts should be put in place to encourage and educate young men. Of all racial and ethnic groups.

It’s a sad fact that many children are raised by single mothers and that this (statistically) harms boys much more than girls in terms of income, criminal activity and other measures.

The New York Times created a mesmerizing flow chart of generational changes in income.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/27/upshot/make-y…

Black and white women raised in families with comparable incomes earn more similar amounts as individuals in adulthood. This data found that black and white women from similar backgrounds in this age group worked a similar number of hours per week, and made about the same amount of money per hour. They also had similar occupations.

White boys who grow up rich are likely to remain that way, while Black boys raised in similarly wealthy households are more likely to fall to the bottom than stay at the top in their own adult households. This can’t be the result of pure racism, since Black women do as well as white women.

White men earn more than almost anyone else. They earn more than black men and they earn more than white women. Both gender and race contribute to inequality, and white men hold advantages in both ways. White men fare better than white women, in part because men were about 10 percentage points more likely than women to be employed. This is historical data. The advantages of women’s income due to higher education will develop more in the future.

Because of the historic advantages of white men, there is pushback from women and minorities when colleges try to “put the thumb on the scale” to equalize the numbers of men and women. There is pushback when programs are suggested for white young men.

Google “America problems with boys” to find several books that discuss this issue.

It’s clear that the pendulum has swung past the point of equality. Higher education for men is a lagging trend in terms of recognition.

The critical point is that educating our entire population to the best of their potential is a national security issue. If the trend is excluding men the Macro impact will be at least as great as it was when women were excluded from higher education.

Wendy

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Important topic, but I do not trust any of the conclusions being drawn. I sincerely doubt that the current lead women hold in college enrollment had much to do with any affirmative action, but rather that much deeper trends, such as urban life suddenly and utterly overtaking village life, the development of birth control techniques almost fully in women’s private control, radical improvements in infant and childhood survival leading to far fewer pregnancies children in families needing care, consequent shrinkage in family size…and more and more.

A key reason I believe Ms Magazine and feminism were not driving the bus is that I am now seeing exactly the same trends of female ascendancy in Mexico, even though Machismo is all too alive and well and barely challenged. When husband and I first started mentoring tutoring fundraising for a local college support program for brilliant but financially and culturally impoverished students [https://jovenesadelante.org/] here in Mexico just five years ago we were desperately seeking more young women and putting extra effort into their success. Now, the women dominate the men in application numbers, ratings, enrollment, GPA, and graduation rates.

We all need to scratch our heads a lot more, while trying to help them all.

David fb

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Wendy,

The breakout of who gets educated by religion is a huge eye opener about cultural thinking.

Back to why fewer men, it is an economic decision most of the time. While my evidence for that is anecdotal it is persistently the same story for 15 years now. Young men do not see the education as worth the money.

I get you can say a degree on average pays xyz% more over time, but that is not fully true. There are a lot of degrees that do not pay at all. There are some degrees that pay far more…ie medical degrees.

Young men overwhelming see the idea of going into debt as a trap. Very often seeing not having a definite plan of studies as useless. These are not depressive ideas. Instead they are very pragmatic ideas.

There is a steady flow of young men into the trades. These positions often pay more than most college degrees and do not carry the typical debt load. Yes there are openings as well for more men and woman to enter the trades.

While your study discusses the demographics and might have touched on the debt involved, the debt has become and emergency for tens of thousands of people primarily women and minorities.

Remember there are college degrees and there are college degrees. The state shall remain nameless as abc, but in the central US there is abc state with East xy abc, then South East xy abc etc…and the law schools as well. Worthless. I will retract the religion behind this as xy so as not to offend anyone.

Last year I was curious about retraining in cyber security. The local two year school suggested a masters from an online school out west. Cheap and quick. Then in further conversations I was told it would not be a good idea for me for practical purposes. Then the two year school dean of the department told me he had the masters and it got him where he is today. In fact he is a foreigner in cyber security. He may have had troubling getting the security clearances from the US government. He wanted only to teach so he needed a masters. Myself as someone with a four year degree can get the masters but it is a very poor scrap of paper. Thinking twice he suggested I would need the practical cert from the two year school to work.

To get to the top of anything you need to work. Having a debt burden is the last thing in any recipe for success.

As an artist I do significantly better financially.

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Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

At the close of the 2020-21 academic year, women made up 60% of college students, an all-time high, and men 40%. U.S. colleges and universities had 1.5 million fewer students compared with five years ago, and men accounted for 71% of the decline.

As the mother of two boys, I have found it impressive how much longer it takes for boys to mature than girls. A similar timeline of maturity could be seen in my sibling mix of 3 girls and 3 boys, where for the most part the girls were goal oriented while the boys were not. It seems to me that kids of all races and genders would do better to work for 2-3 years and then go to college. They would have a better idea of what it’s like to actually work and possibly develop a better idea of what they wanted to study, getting the initial surge of freedom out of their way. We tried to get our kids to do this, but of course societal pressures were against it. Senior year of high school is focused on getting into college, and a teenager will want to do what their peers do. Seemed to me our kids were ready to get the most from a college education just as they were graduating college and there was a good deal of wasted opportunity beforehand.

I would love to see a program instituted that encouraged if not required a couple of years of hands on work. It could be a series of paid internships, “volunteer” work that resulted in college tuition, similar to Americorps, any work activity that gave these kids a taste of what an education could do for them. So much money is wasted on college tuition because the kids are too immature to benefit fully, yet once they are mature enough to benefit, many can’t afford to give it a second go around, or societal pressures once again intervened in the form of not wanting to be an “older” student.

It used to be that there were strong incentives for boys to stay in college…the draft. With the threat of being pulled into war if not in college off the table, the incentive for the immature to buckle down and succeed has decreased. Not wanting to get in a war with a draft, but doing something constructive until your brain matures enough to warrant spending large sums of money on further education seems like a good fix to me.

IP

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Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

Might be a good time to enroll in college to find a wife.

The Captain
but beware indoctrination

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It seems to me that kids of all races and genders would do better to work for 2-3 years and then go to college. They would have a better idea of what it’s like to actually work and possibly develop a better idea of what they wanted to study, getting the initial surge of freedom out of their way.

Seems to me the US had a draft that somewhat emulated that idea? I just read that Conscription is still in place just not being used … who knew?

Anymouse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Sta…

Active conscription ended in 1973 when the U.S. Armed Forces moved to an all-volunteer military. However, conscription remains in place on a contingency basis and all male U.S. citizens, regardless of where they live, and male immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, residing within the United States, who are 18 through 25 are required to register with the Selective Service System.[2][3] United States federal law also continues to provide for the compulsory conscription of men between the ages of 17 and 45 and certain women for militia service pursuant to Article I, Section 8 of the United States Constitution and 10 U.S. Code § 246.[4][5][6]

Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

…and boys are not goal oriented…


IP,

Many fewer young men are ladened with a huge college debt and a worthless degree. That was also purposeful for those young men. If you ask young me and listen the majority will say the debt for the piece of paper is not worth it.

Young women and minorities are starting out owing a fortune to the bank before they get a job. A very large number of degree programs are not nearly worth the trade offs. Most young men are very aware of that. Listen to them.

Plus a very large group of young men now beyond college age do not support tuition free college because they were denied this benefit. Those young men went to work. Those young men became the tradesmen. Those young men make more money than most college degreed people.

Your supposition that boys are inferior aint adding up. Besides it is anecdotal in a household where getting a college degree is possibly expected. Meaning heading to the trades and doing the work you are suggesting is off the table till later.

Parents are very purposely told if your son or daughter starts out after college in at a higher level in the job market their career is made. Family decisions are made to not have the child work because where the son or daughter starts out can be where they end up. Start towards the top is a very conscious decision.

On a more serious note, institutions of higher education might be disrupted by the Internet!

During a Jordan Peterson youTube podcast about bitcoin the conversation wandered all over the landscape including the future of higher education.

Peterson suggested that he might not return to Toronto U as he can educate thousands of people online without the woke censorship. Newspapers were hard hit by the internet as people got tired of the biased reporting of the mainstream media.

Important issues came up, accreditation and hiring. Business now relies heavily on accreditation to hire new staff, as Peterson put it, business delegated candidate evaluation to colleges but the reason college graduates are “better” is not for the education but on account of the use of IQ to screen applicants in the first place.

I was going to link to the podcast but Peterson was out of his depth on Bitcoin and his guest was much too wedded to the Austrian School to be bias free. Bitcoin is neither money nor currency, it might be a substitute for gold as a “hard” asset. Can you imagine quoting prices in something as volatile as bitcoin?

The Captain

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Honest with you Captain, I can not follow your post at all.

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Last year I was curious about retraining in cyber security. The local two year school suggested a masters from an online school out west. Cheap and quick. Then in further conversations I was told it would not be a good idea for me for practical purposes. Then the two year school dean of the department told me he had the masters and it got him where he is today. In fact he is a foreigner in cyber security. He may have had troubling getting the security clearances from the US government. He wanted only to teach so he needed a masters. Myself as someone with a four year degree can get the masters but it is a very poor scrap of paper. Thinking twice he suggested I would need the practical cert from the two year school to work.

To get to the top of anything you need to work. Having a debt burden is the last thing in any recipe for success.

As an artist I do significantly better financially.

It’s possible for an excellent artist to do better financially than someone in cybersecurity, but it’s probable you got bad info. Our oldest son, yes the one I mentioned as having a delay in reaching peak maturity, is working in cyber security with an undergrad degree in computer science and a few paid coop semesters in cybersecurity itself. In his later 20’s, he’s making more in one year than we paid for his whole college experience, while working from home and not putting in more than 40 hours/week.

I would say his degree was worth every penny spent, and given how much he was paid for his 5 semesters of Coop/internship, he left school with a healthy brokerage account, even after his portion of expenses. His first two internships also helped him to realize that IT was not for him, which was priceless in itself before he started taking targeted classes for his specialization.

IP,
HUGE believer in adding actual experience to the resume along with a fresh degree

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Leap, you direct your reply to me and have the following as a quote that you seem to attribute to me:
"Men are abandoning higher education in such numbers that they now trail female college students by record levels.

…and boys are not goal oriented…

Now the first part of the quote came from Wendy’s post that I was replying to, and the second part of the quote must be a recreation of what you seem to think I said? Closest thing to it was this:

A similar timeline of maturity could be seen in my sibling mix of 3 girls and 3 boys, where for the most part the girls were goal oriented while the boys were not.

Not at all the same, with your recreation being a gross overgeneralization and mine being an anecdote from my childhood that supports what I saw with our boys having a slower rise in maturity compared to my friends’ girls.

Words matter. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

IP

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Captain denny: institutions of higher education might be disrupted by the Internet!

And how! And let’s get on with it with all due speed.

My smart poor kid scholarship and support organiztion is now grappling with how we can shift from the “you go to high school and then to college” model to a far more flexible internet supported model that would be immensely more valuable to country and poor kids facing miserable schools and could be far more effective for learning than brick and mortar colleges. We are already creating “student halls” that bring powerful internet connection much closer to our students while also providing them with an intensely supportive environment focused on mutual problem solving, Work in progress.

The accrediting function of Universities and colleges (or worse still here in Mexico its mostly governments) is quite problematic and the main barrier we need to overcome to open education up beyond the privileged lucky and wealthy. When I was hiring two to three people a month for a few years I discovered the power of mostly ignoring academic credentials and instead applying my own simple tests as to how knowledgable, experienced, and mature the candidates were. That is hard work, but it sure paid off for me when I found cheap high school students who outperformed guys with masters degrees. And the high schoolers became extremely loyal when I compensated them according to their abilities rather than their sheepskins.

David fb

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IP,

I am glad your son is doing exceptionally well.

It was not bad advise. I am older. I am not going back for a four year degree. That leaves a one year cert program at a two year school.

I decided not to do it for another reason. I am very expressive as people can see here. It is the artist in me. The career entails security clearances. The amount of self expression in public goes dramatically down. That aspect of it would be a truly bad fit.

I am making very good money as an artist. I was curious about the entire field of computer sciences because I am entering a partnership to set up an online corporation. I had been in tech twenty five years ago. Sussing out the entire field today was an information eyeopener. Digging deeper “as if” I would enter the field myself cyber security was an option that was interesting.

Back on topic regardless of male v female maturity in which females often lead, but not always, saddling on the debt load to go to college has more often than not been a female mistake.

The number of college grads in demand is different than the number of college graduates. Many young men deserve a lot of credit for their self evaluation. The females and minorities at times are rolling the dice and are not aware of it.

Bitcoin is neither money nor currency, it might be a substitute for gold as a “hard” asset. Can you imagine quoting prices in something as volatile as bitcoin?

The Captain

Ah, but it can be turned into money in a specific currency … sort of like the guys who claimed to be able to turn lead into gold?

Anymouse <who drafted himself into the Canadian Army at barely 17. Beat the heck out of working in the local pulp mill in Marathon Ontario.>

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/19/what-the-us-government-does-…

CRYPTO DECODED
The U.S. government has a massive, secret stockpile of bitcoin — Here’s what happens to it

PUBLISHED SUN, DEC 19 20219:00 AM ESTUPDATED SUN, DEC 19 20217:54 PM EST

MacKenzie Sigalos @KENZIESIGALOS

KEY POINTS
The U.S. government regularly holds auctions for its stockpile of bitcoin, ethereum, litecoin and other cryptocurrencies it seizes.

Auctions kicked off in a big way with the 2013 takedown of Silk Road, a dark web marketplace that traded in illegal goods.

“It could be 10 boats, 12 cars, and then one of the lots is X number of bitcoin being auctioned,” said Jarod Koopman, director of the Internal Revenue Service’s cybercrime unit.

“where for the most part the girls were goal oriented while the boys were not.”

I did not put words in your mouth.

…and boys are not goal oriented…

…and boys are “often” not goal oriented…

If I change my statement with one word “often” or not “as” I get to exactly were you were.

If you would read on instead of assuming you know what I said, I did give you credit as using anecdotal information.

Words do matter read them before replying.

The supposition in many of these press reports is that females are getting out head of the boys. It is an ego trip with a ton of debt attached. If we are going by the enrollment stats lets go by the debt stats.

Many boys are making far better self evaluations than to get into the debt traps.

What I am saying has a lot of value.

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David fb,

My guess after watching for a while The Captain is just being tongue in cheek.

I can not follow that stuff.

What I am saying has a lot of value.

You say what you want to say. Just don’t quote anything out of context or reinvent in anyway what was written. Quotes should be exact.

IP

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IP,

I did not quote you.

On a more serious note, institutions of higher education might be disrupted by the Internet!

Every new technology threatens to disrupt higher education. In the 1920s radio was going to destroy universities. Schools started their own radio stations to compete, just like they are doing now with online learning.

For centuries it has been possible to gain an education without a university. As Will Hunting said, "You wasted $150,000 on an education you coulda got for $1.50 in late fees at the public library.” But very few people have what it takes to do that. The vast majority of people who enroll in online courses don’t finish, let alone finish multiple courses and get the equivalent of a degree. For all their flaws, universities provide the social structure (parties, study groups, peer pressure, interact with smart interesting people) and incentives (piece of paper, increased salary) for a lot of people to learn stuff and get a degree.

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It is not a serous note. It is only being taken as a serious note.