My thoughts on Shopify. Again…

My thoughts on Shopify. Again… I published parts of this before but feel obliged to republish it as people I care about are still riding this speculation (see below).

First, here’s why I got out of Shopify: There were several issues. Shopify was having small drops in growth rate every quarter, as would be expected with size, while Square was having increases in growth rate in each of those quarters (in pretty much the same or closely similar fields). Then, the quarter that I, and others, exited, the economy posted a huge rise in GDP and consumer spending, and instead of Shopify responding, they had a huge drop in growth rate. In addition it looked as if their basic small business customers had reached saturation and they were relying on Shopify Pro for future growth.

In fact, I found my sell-out in my August monthly summary. Here’s what I wrote at the time:

I had reduced my Shopify position gradually over a couple of months but it was still one of my major positions. However, in early August I sold out of it in shock when their rate of revenue growth, which had been falling every quarter, precipitously fell in a quarter when the economy was very strong and in which Square, in a market quite similar, had huge results, following on top of increasing rates of growth in all the quarters where Shopify had falling rates of growth. My average sale price for Shopify was about $145, about 537% of my initial purchase price which was $27, two years before.

Here’s the way I see it:

In the Mar 2018 quarter the rate of growth dropped 7 points from 75% the year before to 68%. 7/75 is 9% so the rate of growing dropped 9%.

In the Jun 2018 quarter the rate of growth dropped 13 points from 75% the year before to 62%. 13/75 is 17% so the rate of growing dropped 17%.

That’s when I got out. Since then, the rate of fall, instead of slowing down as the rate of growth decreased (as you would expect), has continued to accelerate each quarter:

In the Sep 2018 quarter the rate of growth dropped 14 points from 72% to 58%. 14/72 is 19% so the rate of growing dropped 19%.

In the Dec 2018 quarter the rate of growth dropped 17 points from 71% to 54%. 17/71 is 24% so the rate of growing dropped 24%.

In the Mar 2019 quarter the rate of growth dropped 18 points from 68% to 50%. 18/68 is 26.5% so the rate of growing dropped 26.5%.

Note that as the actual rate of growth decreased, the percent of drop in that rate of growth has increased every quarter, instead of falling as you would expect. That’s eye-catching, enormous and consistent. That’s five consecutive quarters with the rate of growth dropping more yoy sequentially.

The last three quarters their rate of drop was 14 points, 17 points and 18 points, with no sign that the rate of fall of growth rate is slowing down. But lets assume the next three quarters fall just 17, 16 and 15 points. That would give them growth rates of 45%, 42% and 39%.

Their TTM adjusted EPS is 41 cents and they are selling at $259, which gives them a PE ratio of… Let’s figure here… 259 divided by 0.41 = 632. Yep, a PE of 632!!! Will that tolerate a growth rate in the 30’s, and falling rapidly?

What’s holding Shopify up is speculation about cannabis, not anything that is currently improving. Shopify seems to me to have saturated its market universe of low-hanging fruit of mini-companies, and while its Shopify Pro is gaining, the vast majority of major enterprises are simply not going to hire Shopify to set up their website (and it would probably be thought of as insulting to most large enterprises to even consider hiring a company that specializes in websites for mini-businesses).

Look, a few weeks ago, while riding the NYC subway I was in a subway car with a string of separate subway ads from Shopify saying “Let us start you a business. Turn your mom’s famous apple pie recipe really famous,” and a dozen similar “Let us start you a business” ads, like “Remember that great idea you had last week? Let us start you a business”.

If I wasn’t out of Shopify already I would have sold out then. That said to me they are no longer finding enough self-onboarding little companies, and their move to big companies isn’t doing it. It looks to me almost farcical. Are they going to move a $28 billion market cap company 40% or 50% with “Let us start you a business” ???

In just a few weeks I saw three subway cars with these ads covering an entire advertising side, in my relatively limited subway riding. Is this what they are spending their S&M dollars on? Is this the move towards Shopify Plus, and the dependence on large enterprises that the Shopify holders are counting on?

It seems like desperation to me. If I was a C-level executive for a major enterprise and saw one of those ads in the subway, would that make me think Shopify was for my company? No Way! It sounds like a company for absolute beginners with no current revenue at all.

Best,

Saul

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My average sale price for Shopify was about $145

And yet… SHOP has doubled since then. I’m not saying you are wrong, because I agree. However, I am still holding loosely until the SHOP demand slackens.

🆁🅶🅱
wordlessly watching, he waits by the window and wonders…

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I agree 100% - I have been building own website. Though not a techie, I can put up a store with Wordpress in literally a few minutes and it’s basically FREE. With SquareSpace, Wix, etc. this story is weak at best from here. Big mistake rookies make is thinking what a stock does after buy/sell means it was good/bad decision. Your logic here is rock solid.

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And yet… SHOP has doubled since then. I’m not saying you are wrong, because I agree. However, I am still holding loosely until the SHOP demand slackens.

I lean towards agreeing with that, although I trimmed my position in SHOP to deploy to other companies last month.

I believe it is important we all understand our convictions and why we make the decisions we do.

It is also worth noting that Saul often encourages folks to not follow him solely because he makes a decision. Often, it is great to compare/contrast Saul vs Bear vs others to see how different portfolio decisions are made.

As of last Friday, YTD, SHOP is the 2nd highest performing stock on this board

ROKU: 205%
SHOP: 122%
TTD: 118%
MDB: 114%
OKTA: 105%
ZS: 99%

Know why you invest.

Just a Fool

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I believe it is important we all understand our convictions and why we make the decisions we do.

It is also worth noting that Saul often encourages folks to not follow him solely because he makes a decision. Often, it is great to compare/contrast Saul vs Bear vs others to see how different portfolio decisions are made.

As of last Friday, YTD, SHOP is the 2nd highest performing stock on this board

ROKU: 205%
SHOP: 122%
TTD: 118%
MDB: 114%
OKTA: 105%
ZS: 99%

I’ve held SHOP for awhile. I once sold purely on valuation concerns but fortunately bought back in with a much larger position shortly thereafter.

I still hold it and it’s one of my top two positions (jockeying with AYX.) I continue to do so since my belief in its longer term potential remains and because I’ve learned it’s usually silly to question the market/fight the tape. I’ve also learned that even the best investors are not always right, usually but not always.

That being said, I take Saul’s concerns very seriously and will consider lightening my position over time.

dave

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The logic to get out is certainly there, and always has been. As previous stated, the marijuana sales are largely speculative and expectations are crazy high(no pun intended).

As a Canadian, one of the reasons I have held onto this stock is because while the reasons to hold are not as compelling as many of the other SaaS talked about on this board , this is one that trades on the TSX and I can use my own currency.

My big concern with the marijuana speculation is that our government has not proven itself very good at dealing with the legalization rollout. While not an avid connoisseur, I have talked to a lot of people about the government offered product being inferior to the black market, not to mention more expensive. The packaging is also ridiculous with 100s of grams of plastic being used to package a couple grams of product. You are unable to see or smell the product before purchase, which from my understanding is important for determining quality. This doesn’t even start to touch on the supply issues, but I suspect those will work out in the next year or two. For now, virtually everyone I know who uses the product is more than happy to continue using their existing channels until they have a reason to do otherwise, which as outlined above is not happening quickly even in governmental terms.

So , I am still real close to selling , especially since it passed the 10 bagger mark for me on Friday, a meaningless decision point to make for getting in/out but all the same holds weight mentally. It has been the best investment of my life to date, but I can’t let sentimentality get in the way of good sense.

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Saul,

Appreciate the reiteration of your thoughts on SHOP, your reasoning, as always, is very logical and sound! But I do have a question I’ll get to below.

My history with SHOP is I’ve been in it since April 2016 (thanks to you and this board!), it was the first company I purchased of these high growth (was over 100% at the time), non-profitable ones I’m almost solely invested in now. My initial SHOP purchases (at $30) have gone up over 10X, in a short 3 years, my unending gratitude to all here who helped give me the confidence to change my investing style over that time period. I continued to add to SHOP from 2016 through Oct 2018 at $140. With the stock currently over $310, obviously all positions have grown beyond my wildest dreams, anywhere from double to 10X and every multiple between! Needless to say, for the past couple years, SHOP has almost always been in my top 3 positions because of it’s stock price’s relentless growth!

I’ve only sold any once, about 15% of my SHOP position at the end of last year (which dropped it to about 5th in my port), as I needed the money to pay 2018 capital gains taxes as much of my portfolio is not in tax deferred accounts (did not enjoy it, but a good problem to have). Since that sale, SHOP has again vaulted right back up to my top 3 bouncing around with MDB and AYX for the top spot.

I do agree that SHOP has currently gotten a little ahead of itself, and with your note, I’m probably going to reduce it by maybe 25% (the amount I currently have in a tax deferred account). But I won’t sell out of it as one of my current “rules” are not to sell out based on valuation (I think trimming on valuation is OK).

Now my main question on your analysis…I know you’ve stated you don’t really look at valuation of our companies when looking to invest (unless it really looks bubble-like, crypto, marijuana, etc). But for all companies discussed here, we look at EV/S or something similar, yet for your analysis in this post on SHOP, you never mention that metric, you look at it from a P/E perspective which really seems “unfair” (for lack of a better term) as none of our companies can be, or are, currently evaluated that way as they’re all in their high growth, reinvest in the business mode. I realize SHOP growth has been slowing as you’ve pointed out, but it is still at 50% for an almost 35B company which is pretty amazing IMO. I’m not sure if my numbers are right on, but if you evaluate SHOP along the lines of our other companies, I see trailing EV/S around 27 and forward EV/S (with 40% growth) around 19. High, yes, for slowing growth, but not really way out of line for how it’s performing.

And second question…you still say it with some of our companies and used to say it a lot with SHOP (if I recall correctly), that they can make money any time they want by just cutting their spend, but why would we want them to do that when they can reinvest it to continue to grow. It seems you’re no longer giving SHOP that benefit of the doubt and was just wondering why, and if our other companies will also get to that point where it seems they SHOULD be getting more profitable, but aren’t, as they continue to reinvest.

Just my thoughts…

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Foodles, you are ignoring what I wrote were my reasons. Their rate of growth has been falling by larger and larger amounts every quarter. Listen to that. It’s not just falling, it’s falling by larger and larger amounts each quarter. Supposedly they were going to sign up major enterprises with Shopify Pro to carry the growth as their main market was getting saturated, so where is the growth from big enterprises? Instead they are desperately trying to sign up beginning individuals with “We’ll make you a business!”

Sure the price has risen but that’s based on cannabis speculation, not on the company’s performance. If you want to put your money in a cannabis speculation, that’s your business, but just be aware of what you are doing.

Best,

Saul

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Foodles, I’m sorry if I seem emotional, but I think of Shopify now as The Emperor’s New Clothes. Do you see another double here of their huge CAP? Based on what? This isn’t the growing-at-90% Shopify you fell in love with. This is a rapidly decelerating company whose only hope is cannabis. You can find better choices for your money. Going up from a profit of 10x your original investment, to a profit of 12x, may make you feel good, but it will be only up 20%, and if you put your money in a company that will give you 50% that’s two and a half times as good.

Saul

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Saul,

I won’t argue with your numbers showing declining revenue, they are undeniable.

But, I am curious, what makes you so anchored that SHOP is risen based on cannabis speculation? If that were true (as SQ did with crypto), then SHOP would have inflated and deflated with the recent cannabis stocks. However, it has not.

I would agree that Shopify Plus is an uphill battle into Enterprise, where they often aren’t looking, or don’t need, a solution that establishes a full suite e-commerce business in a subscription (website, point of sales, mobile solution, banking solutions, marketing solutions, search optimization solutions, etc. etc).

However, outside of Square… I’m not sure if there is another solution out there that creates the ease of use for business creation in the e-commerce centered future that Shopify does.

I believe the point that you continue to make to this board is that you are trying to invest is hypergrowth companies that are going to bring you the fastest growth. Even if SHOP ended up as a $100B company in 5 years, that is 41% CAGR. While that is something anyone should be happy with, it means that you ignore a ZS or TWLO or MDB that would be growing at even a greater CAGR as they grow from small to mid-cap.

That’s what I’m picking up anyhow.

Just a Fool

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As always, thanks for your replies, Saul!

And no worries on you “seeming emotional”, I realize you’re passionate about what you do and have an honest interest in trying to knock some sense into some of us slow learners! :wink:

I realize you have nothing but the best intentions for any of us!

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Good points and good discussion!

I agree - I don’t think it’s a cannabis related issue. That has gotten minimal media or analyst coverage since the initial announcement, and Shopify downplayed the potential impact on their earnings call.

If I had to point a finger, I think the price has gotten ahead of itself recently due to the recent rumors of potential antitrust action against big tech: in particular anything bad that comes Amazon’s way (including general souring of consumer sentiment, such as their NYC HQ2 debacle) seems to be interpreted by the market as a positive for Shopify’s business.

As Amazon’s e-commerce growth continues to slow (co. is becoming more driven by AWS etc.), the market seems to be predicting that a greater share of e-commerce growth will go to the Kylie Jenners, Allbirds, Teslas, and MVMTs of the world (ex. SHOP customers) instead of to the fearsome “everything store”. If the trend towards online direct to consumer brands continues, SHOP would certainly stand to benefit.

Worldwide e-commerce spend is enormous and growing (https://www.statista.com/statistics/379046/worldwide-retail-…), and SHOP has a market cap of about $35B currently, which is about 22X next 12 months estimated sales. It might not double from here as fast as some of the pure SaaS plays on this board, but to say that their “only hope is cannabis” is not a fair assessment of the large and growing role SHOP plays in the world of e-commerce.

respectfully,
nat

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Saul:

There are reasons to sell. There are also reasons to buy and/or hold.

But let me understand your reason for selling this. You are focused on the rate of deceleration of the growth over the past several quarters and you extrapolate down. In your way of investing that is not something you like to see. Fine.
But you are also saying something about their market being fully capture and they did not see traction (you say) with the larger enterprise. I think if that is the case then that is definitely an issue. I recall vaguely some discussions about market saturation last year but haven’t read anything recently.
Is that really the problem and is that causing the growth deceleration? You don’t think that shifting towards targeting enterprise may take more time than a few quarters to see results? Or is that something you don’t ever see them gaining any traction ever? You sound like you have made your conclusions just from the growth deceleration of these past few quarters. But what are they doing to set them up for more growth? Why can’t it re-accelerate? Maybe if we are heading into a recession you may be right but that could just be temporary.

The valuation is extremely high. That is a reason why one might sell. But from this rule of 40, OKTA is even more expensive.

tj

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Forgive me, because I fear I am about to ramble.

First, let me address Saul’s concerns on Shopify abandoning larger companies and primarily targeting small businesses. I don’t think this is true, though small businesses certainly continue to offer a steady stream of growth. Shopify Plus, however, is growing at a faster rate than the company’s total revenue. In the most recent quarter, Plus revenue grew 61%.

Remember, Shopify Plus “was created to accommodate larger merchants, with additional functionality, scalability and support requirements” (from the 10-K). Shopify even employs a salesforce – which it doesn’t do for its more basic subscription services – to drive Plus memberships. That certainly doesn’t sound like Shopify is neglecting larger merchants or that it is suffering as a result of any major focus on smaller customers. I wrote more about Shopify Plus here:

Shopify Plus comes with greater capabilities than more basic Shopify plans and makes it easier for merchants to scale and customize their online storefronts. Shopify is also continuously working to add more features to its Plus plan, so that choosing Plus is a clear value proposition for larger sellers.

For instance, this quarter, the company introduced a new multicurrency feature for Shopify Plus sellers, allowing them to sell in multiple currencies but get paid in their local currency, a feature that should make it easier for merchants to make cross-border transactions.

From https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/05/12/shopifys-quarter-a…

In the most recent conference call, COO Harley Finkelstein talked about the major deals Plus was scoring:

Brands across a variety of verticals choose Shopify Plus to help them manage the increasing complexity of their businesses, while also leveraging the agility. flexibility and cost effectiveness of our platform. Shopify Plus brands that launch this quarter included fashion labels such as Betsey Johnson, Levi’s and Hudson Jeans. Celebrity brands like Reese Witherspoon, Draper James brand. The toy company Hasbro, publishing house HarperCollins, personal transportation company Segway and even more brand specific shops from consumer packaged good companies like Johnson & Johnson and Procter & Gamble. We remain focused on further solving the business complexity experienced by company selling its scale by understanding the specific needs of these businesses and improving our product market fit.

From https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-transcripts/2019/04/30/sh…

In the previous quarter, Shopify Plus scored major wins with celebrities (e.g. Tom Brady launched his own brand), The Obama Foundation, and companies such as Unilever, General Mills, Wet Seal, Steve Madden, etc. I just don’t think it’s fair to put more stock in subway ads than the revenue growth and major deals this segment consistently wins.

Second, let’s address Shopify’s valuation. Shares are what I would call “short-term overvalued.” It is roughly equivalent to where Square was last year when it almost reached $100. There’s few ways you can justify the company’s current valuation on its current metrics.

It is one of my favorite companies because I believe it has an unbelievably sticky platform and, even if bought at today’s levels, will probably provide more than satisfying returns to individuals over the long-term. But over, say, the next 12-18 months? I have no idea.

So much on how you run your personal portfolio depends on what type of investor you are.

For Saul-type investors, who are running a concentrated portfolio and in stocks for maybe an average of 12-18 months, I definitely think it can be justified to sell shares here.

For LTBH investors, I think holding here will be fine with the caveat that, as always, some major volatility can be expected ahead. A year from now, even two years from now, Shopify shares could be lower than they are now. Again, I certainly have no idea. But five years from now? I certainly expect the stock price to be much higher.

The problem is that stocks are funny things. They go up in fits and starts, refusing to steadily follow their revenue and earnings growth. Shares could easily go up another 20% from here and then flatline for another 2 years as it digests its growth. Or shares could fall 30% over the next month and then begin climbing again. After a blistering 2-year run, Shopify shares did very little in 2018, before taking off again this year. Another example: Square rocketed up in 2017 and the first half of 2018, before coming back to earth in the meantime. I personally believe it will resume growing again nicely soon.

There is a third method too, what I endearingly call the TMF1000 method: Hold your core position and trade, based on valuation, around the edges. This would probably call for trimming some shares about now. When disclosure rules allow, I might decide to trim a few of my shares, though I have yet to decide. I will definitely be keeping my core position, however, and plan to for many more years to come.

Of course, I’ve been wrong many times before and will be wrong many times in the future. All this is JMHO. YMMV.

Matt
Long SHOP
Phoenix 1 Contributor
BlackLine (BL), MasterCard (MA), PayPal (PYPL), and Square (SQ) Ticker Guide
See all my holdings at http://my.fool.com/profile/TMFCochrane/info.aspx

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Worldwide e-commerce spend is enormous and growing (https://www.statista.com/statistics/379046/worldwide-retail-…), and SHOP has a market cap of about $35B currently, which is about 22X next 12 months estimated sales. It might not double from here as fast as some of the pure SaaS plays on this board, but to say that their “only hope is cannabis” is not a fair assessment of the large and growing role SHOP plays in the world of e-commerce.

Yes, this is why I bought SHOP initially (at about $22) and why I am still invested today. I sold briefly at about $100 on valuation concerns. I read multiple positive comments here about its longer term potential, realized my error and bought back in the 120’s with three times my original position. When many here decided to sell, I have continued to hold based on my original thesis which remains intact. SHOP isn’t growing as fast as some other companies followed here but it might have an extremely long runway of superior growth given its dominant market position and massive, still growing TAM. SHOP could easily be another ten bagger from here or even better. Why sell and pay capital gains taxes on the hope that some other high priced growth stock will significantly outperform SHOP?

I do take Saul’s concerns very seriously. I think it’s important not to fall in love with a stock and to stay vigilant. I decided to trim about 5% of my SHOP position earlier today and will follow it closely.

dave

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I’m an ardent follower of Saul but I always try to learn and make my own decisions. For instance, I’ve missed out on gains in zoom.
I wish I had Saul’s, return of 500%. I’m only up 450% (sobs)
I just wanted to pitch in and say, the last time I can remember Saul was this adamant and bearish about a battleground stock such as Shopify, was Westport innovations.
Sauls analysis makes a lot of sense to me and
I’m not touching it with a ten foot pole

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The cannabis issue seems like a sideshow. Saul was just mentioning that may be holding up the share price and valuation
Looking at the fundamentals is the mai argument here
Valuation, TAM, market saturation point?
With decelerating growth, They would need to pull a Jeff Bezos and come up with some new line of revenue that doesn’t exist.

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Forgive me, because I fear I am about to ramble.

I wish you’d ramble more often, Matt. You’re an insightful analyst and concise writer.
Such a pleasure to read your work. Look forward to your future contributions.

Thanks!

Ears <Matt fan, no position in SHOP>

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I just wanted to pitch in and say, the last time I can remember Saul was this adamant and bearish about a battleground stock such as Shopify, was Westport innovations.
Sauls analysis makes a lot of sense to me and
I’m not touching it with a ten foot pole

This appears incorrect. WPRT and SHOP are totally different. Here’s Saul’s comments and discussion comparing WPRT, SHOP and AYX last year:

https://discussion.fool.com/westport-vs-shopify-and-alteryx-3302…

With decelerating growth, They would need to pull a Jeff Bezos and come up with some new line of revenue that doesn’t exist.

Again, this appear incorrect. Saul brought up an important concern that growth deceleration has increased recently. But growth will naturally decelerate for any company and their core business has a massive TAM.

Respectfully,

dave

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The primary reason to sell SHOP here is the following:

  1. It has a P/S of 28!
  2. We have rationalized our other high value stocks such that they “could always” turn over a profit if they wanted to by not emphasizing growth and instead emphasizing profit, with expected peak profit margins of 30-40%.
  3. SHOP already has a gross margin down at 56%…not 80-90% like many other SaaS stocks.
  4. There is NO WAY this company will attain a profit margin of 30-40% when it’s gross is already down at 56%.
  5. Based on that high P/S (more than doubling in just this year), and the above margins, it may be one of the highest valued stocks in our circle of concern.

We made a huge multiple killing the first tranche…then over a double on the second tranche…but at no time in the past 2-3 years have the numbers been so skewed as above.

For those who still hold it here…you already done good…be careful about being a pig. Your call of course.

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