Papers, papers, show us your papers

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
21

While I don’t want to read that document, I don’t think it is asking anybody to produce a certified birth certificate.

I am sort of assuming the Gov’t knows who is a citizen and not which they could validate with a proper ID (I think the US has the “REAL” ID thing now?).

Before voting, you have to register to vote? I assume the gov’t knows you are a citizen or not when you register to vote. If not, then something is seriously wrong…

But then when you are registered, why a resistance to show ID when voting? I thought this is done in almost every country

22

The problem comes that some valid citizens have difficulty getting a “valid” id, i.e., the id the state has decided is valid.

2 Likes
23

Then the military is required to accept every citizen. “Starship Trooper”, anyone?

2 Likes
24

A “Real ID” driver’s license is acceptable proof of citizenship, per the legislation.

I have told the story before, of the routine involved in obtaining that gold star on my Michigan driver’s license, which shows it is a “Real ID” compliant document.

I saw the thing about “Real ID” in the renewal form for my driver’s license. It said bring a birth certificate. No problem. I have one.

The clerk at the Secretary of State office (the driver’s license issuing authority in Michigan) said “that isn’t a birth certificate. it’s a souvenir from the hospital”. I protested “it was good enough for the Navy”. She was not impressed.

In Michigan, birth certificates are issued by the county of birth. Fortunately, my lifetime of wandering has delivered me back to the county of my birth. Jumped in the car and made the easy drive to a Wayne County Clerk branch office near my home, and applied for the certificate. This is where I got schooled. If I was over 65, the certificate would have been free, in Wayne County. But, the day I turn 65, a few weeks later, was the day my existing driver’s license expired, so I would not be able to drive to the Clerk’s office to apply for the birth certificate, when it would be free. So I paid for it. A few days later, I returned and picked up the certificate.

I also paid for certified birth certificates for both of my parents, because, the last time nativist nonsense was being advanced by people at the highest levels of the government, they were talking about denying citizenship to people born in the US, if they could not prove their family was “rooted” in the US.

update

Finally got around to having the Immigration Service look for the naturalization documents for my father’s parents. The application asked for the date of birth of my paternal grandfather. I had no idea.

Some time ago, I found a web site that finds graves in US cemeteries. Found my dad’s grave, in the family plot. Looked at his dad’s marker: only lists the year of birth. Rats. Looked at the page for my dad’s marker, and noticed it had the exact date and place of his birth, and death. Some thoughtful person had looked all that info up. So, I looked at the page for his dad’s marker. Glory be. There was the date of birth, in Quebec. I’m in business!

The Immigration Service page asked if immigration was before 1906, or between 1906 and 1924. His brother born in 1903 was born in New Hampshire, but his brother born in 1909 was born in Quebec, according to the grave page. Dad, and his younger brother and sister were born in PA and NJ, so I assume official immigration was between 1909 and 1912.

So I smoked $30 for an index search to see if they have any immigration and naturalization records.

Steve…not an anchor baby.

4 Likes
25

I get it, it can be difficult to be able to get a valid birth certificate if you don’t have one. I had a similar situation except from Canada, I had a laminated, license sized ID BC that I always thought was the official BC. Never needed it until I was in my late 40’s, checked with my parents and they were not able to find it so had to go request the proper long-form birth certificate from Canada. It cost some money as well was an extreme pain in the ….

Lucky my mother has a good memory for a lot of details when I was born and I still had a childhood friend that was in one of the few professions (doctor, lawyer, CPA) sign that I was who I said I was.

I wouldn’t expect it to be free and probably shouldn’t be easy

1 Like
26

I suppose it should be somewhat difficult so you can limit identity theft but doesn’t seem a good reason not to require it. Everything I read seems to be normal for most countries. I have lived in 4 so had to deal with the pain of having to produce proof of whom I am, records of my parents, what status I had due to if I was born before a certain year or after, etc.

Likely an issue that gets easier over time…

27

The cost is the issue, as the Constitution explicitly prohibits requiring payment of any sort, to be able to vote. That amendment was enacted because certain states had required a payment to vote, to suppress the vote of poor people. Wayne County, where I live, charges $24 for a certified birth certificate. For some people, that may be the difference between eating every day, and missing a day. State of PA certificates cost $30. Van Buren County, MI, is relatively cheap, at $15.

Steve

1 Like
28

Wayne County will only provide a birth certificate to a person named on the certificate, and requires official ID. PA will only provide a certificate to a person named on the certificate, or their spawn, grandparents, grandchildren, or someone with a POA, with official ID. Van Buren County will only provide a certificate to one of the people listed, or an heir, again, with official ID. I may have sent a copy of my birth certificate to PA, or Van Buren County, or both, to prove my relationship to my parents, along with a copy of my “Real ID” driver’s license.

Steve

29

Having to pay to get a certified copy of a BC is not equivilent to charging to vote. There maybe many reasons to need to get a BC after the fact like my case which is not related to voting. I suppose it would be nice if all documents were free like passports, licenses, BCs, etc. but never seen a country where that is the case.

1 Like
30

And it’s happening again, with some on the radical right claiming Kamala is an anchor baby and is ineligible to run for president. The madness here seems to have no end.

1 Like
31

That is the “rooted” narrative that was being circulated during TFG’s regime: “reforming” birth-right citizenship by restricting it to people with parents who had been in the US a long time. My mom’s birth certificate says her parents were born in Illinois and Indiana. My dad’s birth certificate says his parents were born in Canada, so I am looking forward to documentation from the Immigration Department, to prove their rootedness.

Prior to 1900, records get pretty sketchy. People didn’t live their lives with a ream of paperwork proving who they were. You were who you said you were. Mess up, make a life damaging mistake? Move to another state and start over with a made up name and backstory.

As noted before, under the bill introduced in the House, requiring a certified birth certificate to vote, my grandmother would not be able to vote. She had been kidnapped as a small child, by a woman who skipped across the state line, married my great grandfather under an assumed name, and passed off the child she kidnapped as her own. Zero chance of producing a valid birth certificate for that kidnapped child, my grandmother.

Steve

2 Likes
32

There are a whole bunch of edge cases. E.g., not long back I heard about a bunch of indians in one of the Dakotas that couldn’t get voter ID because their residences had no street address … all mail came to a central facility and went in boxes. They worked out a deal where each residence got an “address” based on some location code in Google maps. So, that one solved, but there are lots more, some for groups and some individual. And, hey, what about the homeless?

33

Edited as I don’t think it is properly showing what I am trying to quote from you…

And, hey, what about the homeless?

It’s a problem that they should look to solve…

As far as edge cases, is the suggestion just to open up no proof of eligibility in order so no edge cases find it difficult?

34

How many native born, USian citizens, are you willing to disenfranchise, to solve a non-existent problem?

Steve

8 Likes
35

How would that term be defined? Uh-oh…

1 Like
36

The definition in the Constitution served well, for over a century. But now, some people want to require greater Shinyness.

Steve

2 Likes
37

It is an existing problem if it introduces doubt in the process . Showing proof to be eligible to vote doesn’t seem to be an issue in most other democracy as far as I know. It doesn’t say you have to show a birth certificate it says “any of the following” as proof of citizenship. Should I just be able to vote in any country that has elections?

1 Like
38

I’ve shown my driver’s license every time I have voted. This is a made-up problem. Voter fraud has consistently been shown to be a very small problem that has no impact on election outcomes. It’s like trying to take shoplifting to absolute zero.

6 Likes
39

We should error on the side of letting people vote because if you take away anyone’s rights under the Constitution it would be a travesty. If someone illegal gets to vote we can deal with that through the courts because the number would be so small that it wouldn’t matter one way or the other.

Andy

2 Likes
40

Sure, but there is a qualification to vote which has to have some kind of process/verification. It can’t be opened up to everybody on the planet, so that process of registering to vote has to exist.

2 Likes