I have a different history.
I have a different feel for this. I believe in honesty. I do not care if there is a conflict to that end. I do not trust that many people will be honest.
The public is moving. Either people stand tall or a major form of ignorance will own us.
We live online in a cut and paste society.
That is not thinking. That is not education.
In many ways it is lazy. In other ways it is dishonest.
While citing sources and bringing up news articles matters, leaning on sources instead of thoughts is nonsense if the position is narrow and bigoted. There is a history of reparations. There is a history of financial bailouts. There is a history of crybabies who do not want to foot the bill. The $4 trillion for the bankers in 2010 was not a bill paid by any of us here. It is important not to be myopic on an econ board.
Um, I don’t think so.
https://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=up_workingpapers
"Second, although West Indian blacks do have higher earnings than Afro-Americans and other black ancestry groups, West Indians’ earnings are 19 percent below the earnings of native born whites. Less than a quarter of this gross earnings gap can be explained by observable differences between West Indians and whites: When West Indians and whites who have the same observed characteristics are compared, there remains a 15 percent unexplained earnings gap (Table 3, columns 4 and 5). Also, the percentage of the black-white earnings gap that is unexplained is larger for West Indians than for any other black ancestry group (Table 3, column 7). The existence and relative importance of an unexplained earnings gap between West Indians and whites could be attributed to unobserved characteristics that make West Indians less productive in the labor market, but it is also consistent with discrimination against West Indians based purely on race.
Systematic racism in the past has generational impacts to poverty, education, and crime. Things are better today, but to ignore the fact that our society is still affected seems overly simplistic.
PS - Sowell is a doucher.
Native Americans had their land stolen. Their children were taken away to be reeducated, assimilated, and sometimes killed. To the extent that some want to be isolated, who can blame them? Many probably don’t see much value in assimilating into an abusive culture.
Native American children born today will still feel the effects of these traumas. To suggest otherwise is just plain dumb.
Reparations doesn’t just mean writing a check, it’s about doing the right thing. Future generations always bear the burden of righting the wrongs from the past. Should we give back their land? Yes. Why shouldn’t we?
It seems like you’re consistently pointing at the others’ culture to explain why they don’t succeed in the broader US culture. Maybe we should flip that script. What is it about the broader US culture and historical impacts that continues to reinforce inequity?
But this is part of the point made in early parts of the discussion, we do not know if the difference is attributable to racism or the legacy of racism. If so, would it be better to direct limited resources at all groups suffering from poverty, not just on the grounds of race?
40-50 years of research in this area and a master and doctorate degree from two of the most prestigious universities in the US. Sure, whatever.
I’m not blaming anyone. I am suggesting as Sowell does that the current condition is not necessarily a reflection of ongoing racism. It is a reflection of a group that remains isolated and now mainly by choice.
If we were now to do another wave a reparations, how would it be divided an how far back? The American Indian Tribes conquered and reconquered each other, who has the final claim? It is a tragedy but most of the world has been the subject of slavery and the victim of one group by force or otherwise taking over the other. At what point, do we finally simply move forward and treat each other equally?
I think that’s the wrong way to view it. The US culture is by no means perfect. However, I don’t know of another area in the world where there is a better and more equal opportunity to succeed. Are you suggesting the US more or less racist and discriminatory now than it was in the past? If so, please explain how.
My concerns with any policy of race based reparations are two-fold. First, we are a nation of limited resources. We are facing shortfalls in social security, Medicare and other programs, along with a public education system in dire need of fixing. We need to make difficult choices with tax dollars about where best to deploy those limited funds.
Secondly, it’s clear that higher rates of single parenthood are having follow on impacts in terms of higher rates of poverty and with it all the other consequences. Asian Americans rank first in terms of Income and Wealth in the US and lowest in terms of the culture’s level of single parent households. Black two parent households with similar levels of education have almost identical avg income and wealth levels to whites.
It is color blind in its negative impact on white, brown and black communities. There are good and bad cultures within in any group. It’s why there are areas of the US that are entirely white communities that have and continue to have very high rates of poverty and low upward mobility.
If the high rates of single parenthood are the primary driving factor of poverty, will policies focused on simply laying the blame at the legacy of slavery or racism, really solve the problem?
There is reason why reparations have not garnered sufficient public support in the US. I think most Americans see this as largely political pandering rather than actual concerted efforts to solve the real social concern.
The Irish in Ireland heard the same things about themselves.
Since 1985 there has been huge outside help by the EU, US, and UK to make up for the past injustices and thefts of Irish property.
Only a coward takes out the injustice visited upon his family on another family that is innocent.
I know little of our aid to Northern Ireland but I don’t believe it was defined by race. If I remember correctly, it was in part a financial incentive to end the violence in the region.
Regardless, it is irrelevant as a justification for a race based reparations program at home.
The US has clear rules about the domestic payment of reparations. It is legal only where it can be determined to be paid in compensation for direct harm to a group as a result of government policy or action. I realize this is an inconvenient reality. Having said that, there is a reasonable debate to be had about what is the current cause of the disparity and how best to address it.
According to the last Pew Research Study, 7 of 10 Americans are not in favor of a reparations policy on the grounds of race. I guess most of us don’t share your view. We do tend to be a thoughtful and generous group, as our help to your country demonstrates. On average, Americans give 7X to private and public charities as our European counterparts.
The true coward is the one that simply militates for the redistribution of property of others while protecting his own. It costs him nothing.
Southern Ireland not Northern Ireland. Since 1985
There is a list of support by the EU and UK when it was a part of the EU. The big three Germany, France, and UK were purposely making Ireland whole.
Unemployment fell from 25% pre-1985. The standard of living today is equal to the Swiss.
I apologize. You did not know. Ireland has had major reparations very purposely by the major powers. It was not just the 12% tax rate. It was not really incentive-based. It was support to make us whole.
We were owed.
We are not the only ones who in spirit are owed.
To a discussion of some of how a reparations plan can work.
Means tested to $100k in assets. Meaning members of the group can only get benefits and cash if their assets are under $100k.
Mortgage help involving zero interest rates lows but the bankers have no guarantee. The bankers must use their judgement. The government would make up a level of interest payment. Default can happen.
Car loans similarly.
More importantly education loans similar treatment.
Money for schools in Black districts.
Cash as a last resort for people perhaps between two asset number. Say small businesspeople with companies worth $50k to $100k. The caveat being this program should last for two generations.
Again, you’ve still not addressed the fundamental objection by 7 of 10 Americans opposed to policies directed only at a specific group on the basis of race.
It just may be a cultural difference. We tend to have an attitude that leans more towards self reliance.
The poverty rate in Ireland was roughly 16% 28 years ago. It was over 20% in 2022. It appears these policies are not solving the poverty issue.
The problem is generalizing when we are not in the kitchen making the decisions. People deserve the benefit of the doubt.
As of May 30, 2024, Ireland’s unemployment rate was 4.40%, which is up from 4.10% the previous month and the previous year. This was the biggest increase in over two years.
Ireland’s unemployment rate in 2022 was 4.48%, which was a 1.71% decrease from 2021. This is lower than the long-term average of 9.93%. However, unemployment rates varied by age group in 2022, with the highest rate being 10.2% for those aged 15–19 and the lowest being 2.3% for those aged 65–74. The youth unemployment rate, which is the rate for those aged 15–24, was 7.5% in Q1 2022, down from 15.6% in Q1 2021.
In the 1980s Ireland’s labour market was one of the worst performing in Europe. The unemployment rate rose from 7 per cent in 1979 to 17 per cent in 1986 , when two thirds of the unemployed had been out of work for six months or more, almost half for over a year.
My comment 1Q2021 was the lockdown.
I respectfully disagree. There have been numerous studies linking systematic racism to education, wealth, and crime. Your “All Poor Lives Matter” approach misses the point.
I think we should understand the problems before we direct resources. Sure, poverty is a problem that affects people from different racial backgrounds. That doesn’t mean the causes of the problem are the same. A blanket approach won’t address underlying causes that may be influenced by historical injustice.
Are you suggesting that well educated people can’t be douchers? I’ll give Sowell his props, he came from nothing and made something of himself. My perception is that he feels everyone can do the same. It’s not that easy. Sowell’s opinions and impacts to policy have made it more difficult for lower socio-economic people to succeed, regardless of race. In my opinion, his oversimplification of complex issues makes him a doucher.
Sure, the US is less racist, lynchings are down…problem solved! Not so fast - it depends on where you live. We don’t live in a homogenous country of rainbows and unicorns, there are lots of places that are still extremely racist and discriminatory. Telling people who still experience this racism that the country overall is much better discounts their experience. Even in areas with less racism - telling black mothers that they don’t need to have the talk with their black sons because we don’t live in that world anymore is ignorant. Watch the news.
Geesh, I don’t know where you’re getting your information - please post the data supporting this bonkers claim. Here’s something a little dated (2016). Maybe we closed the gap in the last 8 years? Seems unlikely.
Welp, it depends. I’d start by asking why the percentage of black single parent households is much higher than that for wonderbreads. Is it partly due to black fathers being incarcerated at a higher rate for minor drug offenses?
What you refer to a laying the blame is simply trying to understand the underlying causes. We can’t fix what we don’t understand.
My parents were Irish immigrants and type As. The family joke was a man was still leaning on a shovel in a field.
My wealthiest cousin from Dublin was on the dole while in college. Walking through Dublin with him over Xmas 40 years ago, he said, “I need to stop in and collect my check”. He was on vacation for the week so the government issued him a check.
The education systems are socialist. It does cost 3k Euroe per year for tuition now. You can become a doctor in Ireland for 15k Euro.
The buses are close to a third Hydrogen powered in Dublin.
Taxes are high but the standard of living is that of the Swiss. Americans would never believe how high the taxes are. But the life style is far better for most people.
That cousin has businesses here. The PPP bailed him out during the pandemic. Without that money he’d be poor. He is very grateful to the US government. He is a duel citizen. As are the rest of us.
The problem is I and most Americans do not share the view that systemic racism exists and or is the proximate cause. I understand the logic of the argument. But like many, you see a statistical difference and automatically attribute it to the legacy of racism. In reality, the cities where blacks are suffering the most are run top to bottom by other blacks.
You should read his books. His argument is that racism was far more prevalent in his time and yet he managed to succeed. Attributing the inability to get ahead today is in part damage done to the black community by the very social policies meant to help them. I grew up poor. It was not easy but, yes anyone with enough determination and a little bit of luck can succeed in this country. People who want to succeed will find a way, those that don’t, will find an excuse.
Nobody said we did, people carry with them all kinds of bias and prejudice. I’m discounting anyone’s personal experience. We’re talking about broad based policy solutions and whether its more appropriate to target poverty in general or just the poverty of select racial groups. Having said that, I know many black people and none of them describe dealing with racism on any kind of regular basis. I would ask that you identify where these so called place are in the US that are still extremely racist. I think this is where social media has created an entire disconnect between the reality of race relations in the US.
You’re referencing an incorrect study. Here’s a little tip, if it’s from NPR it may not be the most objective report. The comparison is two parent households with same or similar education levels. There is little difference in income and wealth with a similarly educated white two parent household
Well here’s your answer, single parent white households have similar levels of incarceration, poverty rates, and criminal activity. In fact, it tracks this way across all ethnic groups. The higher the rates of single parenthood, the higher the poverty rate for the group.
The drug incarceration rate sort of flows with the kind of drug activity. Heroin is now more popular and whites that use it more frequently facing prison as a result. The reverse was true for blacks in the 90’s with crack and cocaine. If were honest, most blacks, like whites, are in prison for far more serious offenses. 12% of the population is responsible for nearly 1/2 the murders and violent assaults. Again, the data suggests higher rates of single parenthood lead to higher rates of violence and criminal activity. The rise in incarceration rates for whites and blacks corresponds to a rise in single parenthood and a breakdown in the basic family structure.
I’m glad it worked out for him but he should thank the American Taxpayers. The government just gives out the checks, the heavy lifting is done by those citizens that make it happen.
Here’s a statistical difference: urban spending on education is much less than on suburban schools. “Statistically” about $2,000 less per pupil. And “statistically” about $4,000 less per pupil than rural education. I should point out that things tend to cost more in urban settings in the first place, so there’s an even greater difference that the raw numbers might suggest.
I would point out that it was “white flight” that built a significant part of the suburbs - where they were welcomed and where blacks were shunned - and now that “everything’s equal” everything is not at all equal. That’s racism, and it’s structural. One way to combat this would be easy: just don’t have local property taxes fund schools since there is an inherent disadvantage to urban schools in doing so, and mandate that every district gets the same allocation of dollars per child.
This, of course, would elicit howls from Sowell and the like, as it would instantly require suburban wealthy parents to subsidize inner city schools, and would likely provoke yet another “white flight” into private schools as so commonly happened in the South (and elsewhere) in the 1960’s. But that’s not racism, apparently.
I’m sorry but this is hilarious. You’re championing Sowell, a one song pony if there ever was one, who cherry picks his data while missing the larger sweep of human history in favor of his pre-ordained conclusions, while warning about the objectivity of NPR. Ho ho ho, good one.
You know what’s weird? The penalties for crack were wildly more severe than those for cocaine. What else is weird, crack was favored in black communities, while the powder was prevalent in the suburbs and colleges. Same chemicals, different delivery system.
Want do you suppose the chances are of a young white getting a job with a misdemeanor drug charge which he works off with community service or treatment? And how would that compare with a young black with a felony conviction which requires hard time?
But there’s no structural racism. Got it.
I have no idea where you are getting your data. Chicago Public Schools are spending almost $29k per pupil and Washington DC just hit over $30k per pupil. The national average is closer to $14k per pupil per year.
The suburbs developed with the invention of the automobile and the ability to live farther away from where one worked. It had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the expansion of the middle class and those with the means to move outside the beltway. Social Policies in cities, cost of living, and poor quality schools, along with high tax rates, crime and cost of living have continued the hollowing out. The poor tend to have less options as a result. Its not because they are black. As Morgan Freeman would say, there is bus leaving the city everyday, all you have do is get on it.
What’s interesting is this the great hypocrisy of the progressive left. Chicago alone as 13 different school districts. The wealthy elite send their kids to public schools that rival most private institutions. Yet, they are completely unwilling to allow kids from outside the district to attend or want their tax dollars going towards other schools in poorer districts.
The failing public schools is a nationwide problem. I’m in full support of school choice. The truth is most progressives are opposed to it because the allegiance is to Teachers’ Unions not the best education interest of the child.
Kentucky has a program meant to equally distribute school funding. It still doesn’t matter. The public schools in better areas with higher incomes and higher rates of two parent households perform better. The failing of public school system has exposed the weakness of a single parent household where the parent is not able to pick up the slack the way two parent households are able to do so.
I don’t think you’ve ever read a single one of his books. I guess you missed the recent whistleblower at NPR.
NPR whistleblower Uri Berliner said colleagues secretly agree with him (nypost.com)
The data directly contradict this notion. There is some evidence that blacks tend to use in more open space and deal to people that they don’t know more frequently that may have skewed the arrest rates. In total, the arrest rates and the rise and fall with a particular group tend to follow the popularity of that drug with the ethnic group.
I agree with you, this is a problem. A lot of Americans refuse to acknowledge that climate change is real. Most can’t even explain simple civics and how our government works. Quite a few whole-heartedly believe insane lies being fed to them through social media. We’re living in crazy-land where posting poorly supported opinions has taken the place of understanding and trusting scientists and experts.
I’d rather be repeatedly kicked in the nutz. 
Given your previous comment - “Discrimination is a non-issue today.” - it’s reasonable to assume that all of the black people you know probably don’t feel comfortable sharing their experiences with you.
You’re not referencing any study. If you have an unbiased study showing little difference in income and wealth…please post it. If not, let’s call it an uninformed opinion.
I’ll grant that NPR leans left, but its a reliable news source, with good reporting. Let’s face it, not all of 'em can be Fox & Friends… 
Education helps, but it doesn’t bridge the gap. At their best - African Americans still earn 17% less than whites with similar education.
Growing up with two parents helps, but it’s not the silver bullet.
Although in general, youths raised in two-parent families are less likely to live in poverty, black youths raised by both biological parents are still three times more likely to live in poverty than are their white peers. Additionally, black two-parent families have half the wealth of white two-parent families. So, many of the expected economic benefits of marriage and the two-parent family are not equally available to black children.
If we’re a little intellectually curious, we’d check our opinions against well documented facts. If you need some help learning how to Google stuff, please let me know. I’m a whiz.
“My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives”. I always enjoy a spirited debate to learn new things. Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anything you posted in this thread that supports your opinions. No articles, no studies, no nuthin’.
PS - Lamar is spelled wrong.
These are false equivalents. It’s always weird to me how these arguments get tied in together. Please try to stay focused on the topic. I know it’s hard but try to follow along. It doesn’t make sense to me to ask tax payers to fund programs meant to address black poverty when we should be addressing all poverty. You don’t have to agree but it is hardly a radical take on prudent use of all taxpayer dollars.
You understand that you just asserted that people are making poorly supported arguments on line and yet you are criticizing the works of someone you have never read.
Actually, it’s such a non issue with us, we see each other for what’s on the inside. For others, people with a victim mentality, the world for them is simply oppressor vs oppressed. It’s this weird liberal thing to treat people of different skin color like some fragile being that needs their protection. You do know we elected a President 16 years ago that was black and the current VP is Black.
The news media is bias on both sides.
Again, you are simply looking at a statistical difference and attributing the difference to race. It’s like if I set a red bucket out in the rain next to a blue one. In the morning one is holding more water, are you claiming the rain was racist? You have to dig deeper. More importantly, you have to explain what systemic govt policies are currently in place that attribute to it to warrant reparations. This is the litmus test imposed by the Supreme Court.
I read books, articles, and then digest, mull, and try to sort through a reasonable conclusion. I gave you an answer it wasn’t sufficient. I can give you another answer but I can’t give you an understanding. You are a conclusion only open to that which supports your preconceived ideas.
PS. I know, I was going to go with Lily Von Stupf but liked Hedley better. Is there some reason you chose the Devil - sounds ominous
Do I need to explain this to you like a 5 year old. Different sentences for different types of drugs does not imply racism in sentencing. Different sentences for the same drug on a regular basis would, does that make sense to you?
Sure, which part of the article is actually incorrect?
So we enacted legislation to fix those issues 50 years ago but now we need another act of reparations? The other part you overlook is that the black communities were already starting catch up with whites after the 1920s leading into the civil rights legislation. For some reason no one understands that progress slowed and reversed course after the civil rights legislation and after the enactment of welfare programs that incentivized single parent households.
It’s been fun by I think it’s run its course. I can’t help you see past your bigotry of low expectations.
