Reparations cost to the economy

[eldemonio]

@HedleyLamar

These are false equivalents. It’s always weird to me how these arguments get tied in together. Please try to stay focused on the topic.

Nope. Denying that systematic racism exists is the same thing as denying climate change exists. There are studies, facts, and many experts have weighed in on both. Faced with overwhelming evidence, many choose to hang on to their unfounded opinions. When asked for evidence to support their opinions, those people waffle and expect others to blindly agree…because that’s what they’ve chosen to do. Which brings us to another point…

@HedleyLamar

I gave you an answer it wasn’t sufficient. I can give you another answer but I can’t give you an understanding.

Show your work. Anyone of us can spout off about what we believe. It’s an entirely different thing to support our opinions with evidence. The reason this is important is because a lot of your opinions have proven to be easily debunked.

@HedleyLamar

You understand that you just asserted that people are making poorly supported arguments on line and yet you are criticizing the works of someone you have never read.

Who said I haven’t read him? I think it’s garbage. I think his whole “pull yourself up from your bootstraps” message is naïve.

@HedleyLamar

Actually, it’s such a non issue with us, we see each other for what’s on the inside.

Congratulations on your color-blindness! I wonder what they talk about when you’re not around.

[eldemonio]

@HedleyLamar

Do I need to explain this to you like a 5 year old. Different sentences for different types of drugs does not imply racism in sentencing.

Whoa, you seem aggravated. I guess your comments toward Leap earlier were just for Leap. You can try to explain it to me like a 5 year old, but you need to get your facts straight first. It’s not a different type of drug, they’re both cocaine. One was predominant with the black community, one with the white community. One carried severe minimum sentencing, the other didn’t. Doy.

@HedleyLamar

It’s been fun by I think it’s run its course. I can’t help you see past your bigotry of low expectations.

Uf, bigotry. That hurts my last feeling.

[HedleyLamar]

No, I’m not aggravated, we just see the world differently that’s okay. I’m an optimist that thinks we live in a place better than most where with some ambition and a little luck it tends to work out.

I want to help all poor people not just those that are black. I want us to improve public education for all children. Your suggested policies are divisive and are a distraction from what are more pressing issues for our society. We are a society with limited resources and need to make decisions about how to prioritize them. Addressing poverty and education with colorblindness, is to me a more important priority.

[eldemonio]

@HedleyLamar

I want to help all poor people not just those that are black. I want us to improve public education for all children. Your suggested policies are divisive and are a distraction from what are more pressing issues for our society. We are a society with limited resources and need to make decisions about how to prioritize them. Addressing poverty and education with colorblindness, is to me a more important priority.

Thanks for the reply.

I want all those things too. There are inequities in many aspects of our society, including education and wealth. The lasting impacts from historical injustice are still with us. There’s ample evidence to support this fact. Unless we understand and address the root of the inequity, its more than likely that our colorblind efforts will continue to favor one group over another.

[jerryab2]

@HedleyLamar

I want to help all poor people not just those that are black. I want us to improve public education for all children.

Can’t be done as large groups. Causes are not the same, so the solutions are not the same. As you seem to think “one size fits all” in terms of a solution to their problem(s), then no solution is possible.

[HedleyLamar]

Somehow we developed a broad set of rules that lifted more people out of abject poverty faster than any other system in the history of the world. We should be able to figure out the last few miles.

[jerryab2]

@HedleyLamar

We should be able to figure out the last few miles.

It is not “the last few miles”. It is the last 200-500+ years.

[HedleyLamar]

I think you misunderstood my answer. We’ve managed to make massive progress in the last 500 years. I think we can figure out the next few years. Solutions aimed at specific groups when poverty is a broad based problem, seem unethical to me.

[Leap1]

@HedleyLamar

I’m glad it worked out for him but he should thank the American Taxpayers. The government just gives out the checks, the heavy lifting is done by those citizens that make it happen.

He is grateful. He has also paid huge amounts of tax in this country for decades.

The American taxpayer does not have a direct relationship to the spending. We have $34 trillion in debt. The idea is to build out our industrial might over the next few decades so that debt and more are next to irrelevant. The debt to real GDP ratio will drop.

The point is we have the resources even in the worst of times.

[Leap1]

@Goofyhoofy

@HedleyLamar

You’re referencing an incorrect study. Here’s a little tip, if it’s from NPR it may not be the most objective report

I’m sorry but this is hilarious. You’re championing Sowell, a one song pony if there ever was one, who cherry picks his data while missing the larger sweep of human history in favor of his pre-ordained conclusions, while warning about the objectivity of NPR. Ho ho ho, good one.

This is why I was voicing frustration the other day.

Be open to facts. This is not a contest of “beliefs” or “opinions”. There are things wrong in the US that do not add up for African Americans but the moment any other party wants a bailout it happens ASAP.

Economic profits run to zero. There is only one law of economics, “A buck is a buck is a buck”. The reason all else fails eventually is economic profits run to zero.

YET we do not allow anyone but African Americans to take the brunt of that in a group setting.

Yes, individuals do go bankrupt regardless of their creed. Goes for corporations as well.

adding

In fact, education is socialist. The funds are denied to some African American classrooms and the students are blamed. Teachers are also blamed.

The larger society is in denial.

In the Hartford area, we had county governments till about 1967 or 1969. The inner city was becoming more African American as wealthier European minority groups followed the highways out to the suburbs. Greater Hartford and the other counties were broken up into towns and cities for independent tax collection. The only reason to suddenly do that was racist. There had been no problem funding Hartford schools from taxes levied on all of the county Greater Hartford for two hundred years.

[Leap1]

@HedleyLamar

It doesn’t make sense to me to ask tax payers to fund programs meant to address black poverty when we should be addressing all poverty.

But we do address any poverty other than Black poverty. The rates of poverty among whites are much lower.

Latinos in the US have the 5th largest GDP in the world. We do not need to address it. While Latinos face discrimination, the groups also have reverse discrimination with people assuming they will pay for hard workers.

African American labor has done more to build this country than anyone else’s. The African Americans have the least to show for it.

[HedleyLamar]

@eldemonio

want all those things too. There are inequities in many aspects of our society, including education and wealth. The lasting impacts from historical injustice are still with us. There’s ample evidence to support this fact. Unless we understand and address the root of the inequity, its more than likely that our colorblind efforts will continue to favor one group over another.

I appreciate your position and would address it this way. The past no doubt has an impact on the present. I’m sure for someone who is Jewish born today, the history and legacy of the holocaust could have some impact on that person and their experiences. Yet, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to say that it should not have a significant impact on that person’s ability to succeed in life.

I’m not denying those that believe the legacy of slavery has some ongoing impact. I think there is some legitimate disagreement about how much impact it has on the future of current generations. Even if there were clear empirical evidence to support it, we need to be solution oriented with policy. Reparations could be paid to tomorrow and yet there would be no material difference in the rates of single parenthood, violence, disparate levels of skills and education. In other words, the problems of poverty would still exist.

I would much rather with resources available that we focus our attention and efforts on solving the problem of poverty and disparate levels of education.

[Leap1]

@HedleyLamar

Yet, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to say that it should not have a significant impact on that person’s ability to succeed in life.

That is true.

But when negotiation a job and pay there are impacts in the here and now. There are a myriad of negotiations that are discriminatory today.

[Leap1]

@HedleyLamar

I would much rather with resources available that we focus our attention and efforts on solving the problem of poverty and disparate levels of education.

Regardless of cause we agree here. In full we agree.

I think money should be available to better mom pop business ventures. Loans for education and homes.

Most of this exists now. It will be stripped away next year. As things stand now.

The monies for are retooling of new American factories will be stripped away as well. That was promised earlier in the day yesterday.

The racists always make all of us poorer. Jefferson was endlessly in debt hoping slave labor would pay his bills. He died in debt. The song of the South. Hamilton wanted a powerful nation and Jefferson was worried the slaveholders would be deeper in debt. The New York bankers held a lot of the debt.

[Goofyhoofy]

@HedleyLamar

I have no idea where you are getting your data.

From, you know, reliable sources, not just a solo statistic like the ones you presented.

Funding disparities for city students are a nationwide issue: Public school pupils enrolled in urban districts receive on average around $2,100 less per pupil than their suburban counterparts, and **$4,000 less than students who attend rural remote schools** , according to a recent study by EdBuild.

Why City Kids Get Less Money for Their Education - Bloomberg.

@HedleyLamar

The suburbs developed with the invention of the automobile and the ability to live farther away from where one worked. It had nothing to do with race and everything to do with the expansion of the middle class and those with the means to move outside the beltway

Curiously, there were lots of cars in the 1910s and 1920s, yet there were still vibrant downtowns with banks and theaters and 5-and-dimes. Then came the war, and after …

The years after World War Two saw a massive movement of people into new suburbs. The growth of suburbs resulted from several historical forces, including the social legacy of the Depression, mass demobilization after the War (and the consequent “baby boom”), greater government involvement in housing and development, the mass marketing of the automobile, and a dramatic change in demographics. As families began moving from farms and cities into new suburbs, American culture underwent a major transformation. Race and class dynamics began to shift; the longer distance between home and work generated a highway and housing construction boom; and older community institutions began to disappear as the family turned inward.

There were many factors propelling the growth of the suburbs, of course, but it is disingenuous to pretend that race had nothing to do with it. And continues to, as I have demonstrated in the first quotation in this post. But Sowell says “that’s not structural” and you swallow it.

@HedleyLamar

The failing public schools is a nationwide problem. I’m in full support of school choice. The truth is most progressives are opposed to it because the allegiance is to Teachers’ Unions not the best education interest of the child.

It isn’t about “school choice”, although that’s a worthy goal someday. For now it’s about school equity And the objection isn’t to school choice, it’s to denuding public schools in favor of certain special selected schools. It’s like taking the budget for street repair and using part of it for streets only certain people can drive on, which necessarily diminishes the condition of the streets everybody drives on. Rinse and repeat often enough and you have two sets of streets: “special streets” for “special people”, and pothole cratered paths for the rest of us.

PS: I have read enough Sowell columns to know to avoid his books. His “I made it, and so should everybody else” philosophy is a joke, and the denial that there is inherent structural racism - of which multiple examples have been given you in just this thread alone - to your (and his) denial doesn’t make them untrue.

It’s astonishing to me that you can look at the penalties for crack vs powder and not see the obvious racial dimension to those particular laws. Maybe that wasn’t intentional , but it didn’t have to be. It tagged a good part of an entire generation of black youths as forever consigned to a low wage, low advancement life. Multiply that by mortgage redlining, white flight schools, property tax advantages of suburban schools, and yes, societal and parental norms (which anyone must agree have been destructive) and you have (at least) some case for (at least) some consideration of solutions.

Just saying “Well, nothing to see here” is the same solution we used for 100 years after Jim Crow and the slavery war, which eventually culminated in a VASTLY unequal and potentially combustible society. Or do you think that because Louis Armstrong was successful, “anyone could be.”?

[HedleyLamar]

@Goofyhoofy

From, you know, reliable sources, not just a solo statistic like the ones you presented.

Funding disparities for city students are a nationwide issue: Public school pupils enrolled in urban districts receive on average around $2,100 less per pupil than their suburban counterparts, and $4,000 less than students who attend rural remote schools , according to a recent study by EdBuild.

I think we’re talking about two different issues. What the article references is the allocation difference between resources to urban and suburban school districts. It does not mean that the overall spend per pupil is less necessarily for urban students vs suburban students. It also does not mean that the overall spend per pupil is less in poorer districts vs wealthier districts. Does that make sense?

If we look at total spend per pupil, regardless of the source, Chicago Public school spend per pupil has almost doubled to nearly $30k, which is similar to other areas, like DC, Los Angeles and then New york City is projected to hit $39k per pupil by 2025.

The national average is closer to $14k per pupil. Back to our original discussion, assuming these urban areas contain large numbers of minorities and are comprised of poorer districts, it appears there is actually way more money being spent in Urban districts per pupil, even though there may be legitimate arguments about how state and local resources are being allocated between them. If that’s true and to my point, we need to be addressing education problems on a broad basis not on the basis of race.

@Goofyhoofy

Just saying “Well, nothing to see here” is the same solution we used for 100 years after Jim Crow and the slavery war, which eventually culminated in a VASTLY unequal and potentially combustible society. Or do you think that because Louis Armstrong was successful, “anyone could be.”?

That’s not what I am saying but let me try to be clear, there is no doubt the past has an impact on the present. I think we are far enough removed from the history of slavery and the other acts of discrimination that it is a complex issue to separate out what of the current difference is solely a result of that history. Even if it could be empirically determined, I would rather as society that we be solution oriented. The payment of reparations would do nothing to fix the issues we have with crime, poverty, gaps in wealth and education and knowledge. Given that our country has a growing debt problem and limited resources, I would rather stay focused on using those resources to address specifically poverty and education in way that has the broadest impact possible.

[Hawkwin]

@HedleyLamar

His argument is that racism was far more prevalent in his time and yet he managed to succeed.

With respect, what factual relevance does his anecdotal experience provide?

@HedleyLamar

I grew up poor. It was not easy but, yes anyone with enough determination and a little bit of luck can succeed in this country.

As did I, but I have little doubt that my apparent whiteness (I am mixed but visually no one would know), aided me in my success. I base such on the fact that I personally witnessed the damage of overt racism on many of my black friends; but that is just as anecdotal as Sowell’s experience.

@HedleyLamar

I know many black people and none of them describe dealing with racism on any kind of regular basis.

Anecdotal again. One of my black friends is a regional director for a fortune 100 company. He is in charge of a line of business for multiple states and he shared with me that he still sees such at his high level. Yes, just an anecdotal.

@HedleyLamar

I would ask that you identify where these so called place are in the US that are still extremely racist.

More anecdotal but I have family that live in southern states that will often make overt racist comments - without any awareness of just how wrong those statements are. My mother made such a comment when she last visited me about locking the doors to the car as we drive through an urban area of our major metro. She would not make that comment if we were driving through a poor rural area.

All that being said, I don’t support reparations for different reasons (one of which is how to decide who is eligible when you are like me - both a descendant of slaves and slave owners).

[HedleyLamar]

@Hawkwin

My mother made such a comment when she last visited me about locking the doors to the car as we drive through an urban area of our major metro. She would not make that comment if we were driving through a poor rural area.

Does your mother make the comment because urban areas are predominantly black or simply because she thinks urban areas are more prone to criminal behavior than a rural one?

Thanks for your take. I completely agree that our experiences are anecdotal. I do share your view that part of the problem is how to even divide up reparations appropriately, not only for the reasons you mention but also for other reasons that make it difficult if not impossible to discern how to apportion the funds. But if I am honest and I have tried to be, I don’t think it provides a solution to the poverty issue in this country and the increasing gaps in the quality of education that are impacting Americans as a whole. Even if we could figure out a fair method of disbursement, I still wouldn’t favor reparations and would prefer to use our financial resources to tackle the issues more broadly.

[Hawkwin]

@HedleyLamar

Does your mother make the comment because urban areas are predominantly black or simply because she thinks urban areas are more prone to criminal behavior than a rural one?

Black/Hispanic - or more accurately, an assumption that there are more residents there that are minorities (she is from out of state so she would no way to know for sure). When she said it I asked her did she feel that way because it was poor and she would not answer my question - I think she realized it was an inappropriate comment.

But is it fair to imply (much like she did) that simply because it is a poor urban area that it is more prone to criminal behavior than some random rural area? Neither of you would have any data to support such an implication.

This side of my family will often make disparaging comments about their own family members dating (or having babies with) people of color. I try to take it in stride.

[HedleyLamar]

@Hawkwin

Neither of you would have any data to support such an implication.

I don’t think our perceptions are shaped by data as much as by personal experience and perhaps unfounded bias. It’s a problem when the data doesn’t reflect it and it cuts both ways.

Your Mother’s perceptions might be shaped by personal experience or lack of familiarity with urban minority neighborhoods vs rural ones. Just as someone that lives an area and experiences racism, may extrapolate that it is much more widespread or typical of other neighborhoods, when the data may not support it. Somewhere in there, I think social media as amplified the perceptions rather than providing clarity.

We saw a similar phenomenon during Covid. There was a Gallup poll in 2021 that surveyed democrats and Republicans regarding the impact of Covid. Republicans tended to underestimate the impact and Democrats tended to overestimate it. I think something like 40% of Democrats polled believed 1/2 of all Covid cases required hospitalization when in reality the rate was somewhere between 1 to 5%.

I wonder if regarding the race and reparation issues the competing views are also simply off the mark in terms of prevalence and impact?