Saul and All

http://discussion.fool.com/a-new-improved-revised-knowledgebase-…

I have been reading this compendium of Saul’s Pearls and wondered if you might expand on the selling process. Most of your suggestions are regarding getting into a stock with just a few comments on getting out.

The main reasons you sell were:

  1. A stock became too large a portion of your portfolio
  2. A stock went up wildly
  3. Sell if you think the story has changed

I noticed you do change out some of your portfolio from time to time.

Care to add more color to your sell decisions?

Many of your buy analysis recommendations are pretty standard suggestions and yet you have had superior results compared to every other money manager who also knows these same rules. I see you essentially get nearly all your stocks from the MF landscape that have essentially been “prescreened”. You then apply your buy rules (standard advice) to that MF pool of stock suggestions.

It would seem if your buy analysis is pretty standard advice, to what do you attribute your superior results (ie, what do you do that every other money manager can’t seem to do)?

I am surmising either:

  1. You have an uncanny sniffer for a select few stocks
  2. You have special prowess at knowing what and when to sell.
  3. You very strictly follow your rules and others can’t.

Care to elaborate more on your sell methodology?

Thanks in advanced.

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It seems to me that we regularly have people coming by this board and asking Saul if he has some kind of secret sauce. The FAQ covers some of that, of course, but often people are not satisfied with what they get from there. Now, I’m not Saul and I can’t claim to have his track record, but I suspect the answer is partly what he has communicated and partly what is impossible to communicate. There are some screening metrics which have been communicated. There are the insights that come from intelligent, dispassionate, exchanges of viewpoints among the participants of this board, which we all share in. But, in the end, there is a decision to buy which is not everything that comes by that sounds good, but certain companies where the story resonates. By the same token, on the sell side, there is a combination of the circumstance of wanting to liberate money for something else or feeling like the story for a company has changed or feeling that the picture one once had of the company may not have reflected all the information one now has. And, again, there is a very individual decision to sell.

Empirically, Saul is good at those non-quantifiable decisions. Not perfect. Not magic. But, good enough to excel on the whole. Others on this board seem to also excel at lease for some periods. But, I don’t think that those of us who are not as good at it can expect that any revelation is going to suddenly make us much better at it. Hopefully, by hanging out in the exchange, we will learn perspective and that will make our future decisions more on the ball. But, in the end, there is no magic sauce that can be transmitted or even taught. One internalizes it or one doesn’t.

I know myself that there are bets Saul and others make here that I am unlikely to make, at least any time soon, simply because I don’t feel that I understand the industry. Anything related to fashion comes to mind. Clearly, there have been some big wins there for people on this board, but I can’t imagine following them because I don’t feel that I understand the industry. So, most of my investments are in some version of tech, since that is an area where I feel at least remotely competent to understand the issues. I realize that is a limitation I have that Saul does not have, but I can’t wave a wand and suddenly make myself comfortable in an industry where I am not now comfortable. Years from now, maybe. But not now.

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Saul, if I may ask one question on top of the others: How do you keep from becoming - for lack of a better term - too “emotionally involved” in the stocks you own? Like, right now two of your top positions are SKX and SWKS. One day, whether it’s next month, next year or next decade, you will most likely sell these positions.

Will that be hard for you to sell two companies that made such significant gains for while in your portfolio?

To my own detriment, I find myself rooting for my stocks in similar fashion to how I root for my sports teams. The problem with that is that it becomes hard to remain objective about their prospects. For instance, being a die-hard Miami Dolphins fan, I will maintain to the death that Dan Marino was the greatest QB of all-time. On some level, I realize that might not be an objective or even correct opinion. But I have my reasons that I can cite, chapter and verse, if/when the subject ever comes up at a social gathering.

Once one of my stocks makes significant gains, I find the “bull” angel on my right shoulder shouting down the “bear” demon on my left shoulder more and more and I find it harder and harder to remain objective about the company. I find myself gushing about how smart the CEO is or how great their growth opportunity is or how awesome their product/service is.

My gut tells me this happens to most people too, which is why so many of us find it hard to sell Netflix or UA after it’s made these types of momentous gains while they were part of our portfolio. But you don’t seem to do this. How do you keep these “loyalty” instincts - again for a lack of a better term - from kicking in and overruling your better judgement?

  • Matt

PS - Saul, again thank you so much for all you do on this board. I’ve learned so much from you ad others on here. It is truly the best board in all of Fooldom!

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I know myself that there are bets Saul and others make here that I am unlikely to make, at least any time soon, simply because I don’t feel that I understand the industry. Anything related to fashion comes to mind.

A good place for you to start is by reading his compendium a few dozen times. The whole premise behind him writing this is that he believes that people can be taught to fish instead of just blindly following the FOOL or anyone else for that matter.

I must have missed the part about him saying learning the process is futile.

Let me give you one example that I suspect you could greatly benefit from. While you imply that industry comfort is a necessity for your investments (technology in your case), it did not benefit you with your 60-70% losses in DDD and XONE that you may even still hold.

Now Saul specifically mentions 3D PRINTING and why he got out and why he would not have allowed himself to lose that amount of his investment and would have redeployed it elsewhere. So he is using “rules” and perhaps he is more successful because he is more likely to follow them. These rules/guidelines are industry agnostic.

But I think if you read his compendium a few more times, you will see that it is chalked full of rules/guidelines. Ask youself honestly…how often have you consistently and dispassionately actually followed them.

But back to the selling question, most investors struggle with this issue far more than buying. Within Saul’s compendium, it is most heavily weighted to getting into a stock.

So maybe we can just get more color on how/why he gets out.

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Many of your buy analysis recommendations are pretty standard suggestions and yet you have had superior results compared to every other money manager who also knows these same rules. I see you essentially get nearly all your stocks from the MF landscape that have essentially been “prescreened”. You then apply your buy rules (standard advice) to that MF pool of stock suggestions. It would seem if your buy analysis is pretty standard advice, to what do you attribute your superior results (ie, what do you do that every other money manager can’t seem to do)?Care to add more color to your sell decisions?

Hi Duma, I’m thinking about it but we have my daughter visiting and thus I don’t have the time to give you a good response. I was thinking though that most of what I do is contained in the Knowledgebase and the rest is probably intuition and experience.

As I read further on the thread I came across what Tamhas had written and I thought that this part was apropos It seems to me that we have people asking Saul if he has some kind of secret sauce. The FAQ covers some of that, of course, but often people are not satisfied with what they get from there. I suspect the answer is partly what he has communicated and partly what is impossible to communicate. There are some screening metrics which have been communicated. There are the insights that come from intelligent, dispassionate, exchanges of viewpoints among the participants of this board, which we all share in. But, in the end, there is a decision to buy certain companies where the story resonates. By the same token, on the sell side, there is a combination of the circumstance of wanting to liberate money for something else or feeling like the story for a company has changed or feeling that the picture one once had of the company may not have reflected all the information one now has. And, again, there is a very individual decision to sell. I shortened that but I felt it captured it pretty well.

He went on to say there is a part that isn’t teachable. Well, sure, everyone is going to have their own intuitions, idiosyncrasies and personal ideas, but I think that the overall idea is teachable, as many people have written in that they are already having much better results than they have ever had in their lives.

I also disagree with your assertions that my buy decisions are pretty standard. For example, I don’t buy the very high PE stocks and the no earnings (yet) stocks that RB likes. I don’t buy small amounts of 150 stocks as Stock Advisor would have you do, etc. I do work on the basis that there will always be lots of good companies, which were very good holdings, that I never got into. I also make what I hope are transient mistakes, which I go ahead and get out of, and then are sorry to hear that there are people on the board who have stubbornly held on, always with hopes for the future turn-around (which, I’m sure may come for some of them: “Heck, NFLX came all the way back and more, so why shouldn’t I hold on to this one?” I actually think the bizarre NFLX crash and comeback damaged the reality perception of a generation of MF subscribers.)

As far as selling, I believe I’ve told what I do. When I think a company has reason to be sold, I usually sell it gradually unless there is an urgent reason. I then sometimes change my mind. For instance, when Supernova gave their long rational for selling a third of their AMBA I got worried and sold a bunch of mine, then thought it over and decided it was silly, and bought back most of what I had sold a day or two later at (I think) a dollar or two higher. So I am certainly not perfect.

Best,

Saul

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Hi Duma, I’m thinking about it but we have my daughter visiting and thus I don’t have the time to give you a good response.

Hey Saul:

Enjoy our time with your daughter…far more important than anything investment related…what we do all this for anyway…our families.

BTW…as another case study…are her results as good as yours? Maybe there is a genetic basis for investing :wink:

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I think one of the things I learned from Saul on selling is not to be afraid to sell. There are a lot of good companies out there for your money. I am not saying to sell for the sake of selling but if something comes up that looks fishy then get out. Just like up board when Strelna said he got out of a company after he found the CEO and others selling their shares and he investigated and found out that they had problems with their financials. He didn’t get out because they were selling but this caused his investigation. He got out because he found the problems in their financials.

One thing I am having a problem with is getting out because the company is putting money into their growth. Like AIOCF. Saul got out of it because earnings are coming down. But I see the company growing and spending for more growth. I stayed in. Now Saul says he is keeping an eye on it and I suspect that if next year he sees the growth starting to come back he will jump back in. But my money is still sitting in the company and could possibly not grow. That there is one of the harder decisions on selling that I have seen. I am still pondering on this.

Andy

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One thing I am having a problem with is getting out because the company is putting money into their growth. Like AIOCF. Saul got out of it because earnings are coming down. But I see the company growing and spending for more growth. I stayed in. Now Saul says he is keeping an eye on it and I suspect that if next year he sees the growth starting to come back he will jump back in. But my money is still sitting in the company and could possibly not grow. That there is one of the harder decisions on selling that I have seen. I am still pondering on this.

Andy,

I haven’t written much lately given a busy job, but this is exactly where I differ from Saul, whose approach has obvious merit. I would consider myself a hybrid of (a) David Gardner’s little to no sell method and longer term hold horizon, and Saul’s portfolio holdings target of around 20 stocks. If I do my homework upfront before buying, and understand and commit to the strategic thesis, then I stick with it even in the face of sacrificing short-term profits for growth or short-term bumps in the road. Not blindly, but again just longer than many on this board. I am also still in AIOCF, as well as UBNT for this reason.

I did this with Tesla, have held since $30, and plan on holding a very long time, given the EV macro trend is still in the early stages (see recent Ron Baron article interview), but I believe EV/home energy storage could well be one of the biggest industrial and consumer transformations the world as ever seen. So I kept every share while Saul was in and out along the way. He didn’t make a mistake, nor did I, just different approaches.

I have also done this with INBK, a very small cap at present, because I believe that the banking world is incredibly ripe for major disruption. If I believe in BOFI’s model, how can I not be attracted to INBK if I believe they have similar potential and are managing the business the right way? I may have jumped in earlier than some (2014), but I did so with my eyes wide open.

I could list a number of other examples, but in the end I have realized that I am most attracted to and aligned with David Gardner’s approach to investing in Rule Breaker businesses that can disrupt industries and grow into prominent leaders in the markets they pursue. AMBA, SCTY, TRIP and so many others.

I feel so fortunate to have this wonderful access to and ‘partnership’ with The Motley Fool and all of you. May we all continue to learn, amuse and profit…!!

Vic

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FWIW, Duma’s remarks about me and 3DP are based on zero knowledge of my holdings and a gross mischaracterization of some remarks on the NPI board.

My point about industry understanding is that there is a lot I can understand about, for example, SKX and the comparison to UA from a “rule” basis, but I would still be uncomfortable about investing in SKX because I don’t understand the shoe business … and I’m not going to acquire that understanding by reading Saul’s FAQ.

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Clearly, there have been some big wins there for people on this board, but I can’t imagine following them because I don’t feel that I understand the industry. So, most of my investments are in some version of tech, since that is an area where I feel at least remotely competent to understand the issues. I realize that is a limitation I have that Saul does not have, but I can’t wave a wand and suddenly make myself comfortable in an industry where I am not now comfortable. Years from now, maybe. But not now.

Hi tamhas,

Just for interest, I almost never understand the industry and the technology. I don’t know anything about banking but I have invested in BOFI and INBK. I don’t know anything about chips but I have invested in SWKS and AMBA. I don’t know anything about the shoe business but I have invested in SKX. Etc. All successfully so far. I invest not based on knowledge about the industry, but on the fundamentals and progress of the company itself. If I thought I had to understand the industry, I doubt I could find any stocks at all I could invest in. I also have found I get help in understanding companies from people’s posts. I learned an enormous amount about BOFI from Fletch’s posts and about INFN from that incredible series on the INFN board, for instance.

Saul

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Just for interest, I almost never understand the industry and the technology. I don’t know anything about banking but I have invested in BOFI and INBK<?I>

Saul:

That is an important message in your compendium. Your guidelines/rules should be industry agnostic.

IMO, many “insiders” in technology/medicine/whatever are often way off on their investments in their area of expertise.

Doctors are often notorious for misreading where a stock is going even though they should have the inside scoop.

Industry knowledge may not be an advantage.

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Tamhas,

You wear shoes though and you could go and check out sketchers shoes. They are really comfortable. I would have never bought them but my wife started wearing them and liked them. Then she liked them so much she bought me a pair. Now I have 4 pairs of sketchers and they are my go to shoe for casual. Great shoe and very comfortable.

Andy

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My point about industry understanding is that there is a lot I can understand about, for example, SKX and the comparison to UA from a “rule” basis, but I would still be uncomfortable about investing in SKX because I don’t understand the shoe business

The shoe business not not that complicated. It’s a simple retail business. You don’t need to understand much about fashion to see that

  1. people are buying the shoes
  2. their financials are solid
  3. their margins are increasing
  4. they have pricing power
  5. they are in the midst of international expansion
  6. their executives seem honest and shareholder friendly
  7. their growth rate relative to P/E look very attractive
  8. they are winning market awards
  9. their market share is increasing

If you are adding a requirement that you have to be an industry expert in every stock that you invest in then your universe of stocks available to you will be very limited. No one is asking you to run a shoe business; you just need to know enough to make an assessment for investment.

Now you have said that you are in the technology field. But I would argue that this sector is FAR more complex than the shoe business or the shipping business or the restaurant business. I would caution you not to be overconfident about your knowledge in technology. For instance, it is a lot hard to stay current in technology because it’s changing so fast. Also, to fully understand the intellectual property is almost impossible.

Chris

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I almost never understand the industry and the technology.

And, that clearly works for you, but is outside my comfort zone.

My classic example is a friend who inherited a big chunk of BAC which had done just fine for his parents. I expressed at the time that, if it were I doing the inheriting, I would almost certainly promptly sell it and invest in something I [deluded myself that I] understood since I knew I didn’t understand banking, but he hung on to it. Then 2008 happened and it never recovered. Ouch.

Andy, trying a pair and liking them doesn’t mean that one understands anything about how well the company is going to do in an industry as fickle as fashion. I don’t even know what to analyze.

Chris, I get what you say. But, I have also seen people say similar things about other clothing brands and then a year or two later this brand which was in ascendancy is in the dumps, often with no obvious reason except that the market decided it was interested in something else. At the very least, that means having to watch the stock very closely for a shift and a preparedness to jump ship if there is a change.

And, I have no pretense at being an expert in all areas of technology, but it is a place where I at least feel I have some useful instincts. That needs honing and supplementing by some of the kind of thought processes we see here, but for me it means a better foundation that an industry where I know I don’t understand how it works.

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Andy, trying a pair and liking them doesn’t mean that one understands anything about how well the company is going to do in an industry as fickle as fashion. I don’t even know what to analyze.

It would be very instructive for you to go back and re-read the Saul compendium. Instead of trying to develop a retail discipline, Saul is saying that you SHOULD develop an investor discipline.

If you follow the numerous data points from 1ypeg, graphs, earnings growth rates, etc. as he detailed repeatedly, you can apply this learned discipline to any investment and in any industry.

Understand the industry if you want but failing to understand the discipline of investing is the greater sin.

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Thanks Vic,

Those are all great points. I do not want to follow Saul for the sake of following him but I do want to develop my investing skills by studying his process. He has a great many points that are helpful.

You brought up UBNT. When Saul sold UBNT I disagreed and thought that the company would do fine. I believe I held onto it for three quarters after Saul sold thinking that they could turn it around. But now I have come to the same decision Saul did. The last conference call showed me exactly what Saul saw 3 quarters before. The CEO seemed to be disengaged from the company and I just couldn’t believe how he was talking on the conference call. So I sold. Now that could be a bad decision in the future but it isn’t one I am sorry for. I Kept AIOCF because I still see the CEO has highly engaged and I think the security camera market has large room to grow. So the thesis is intact and that is why I am still in.

One thing Saul has taught me is that you can research a company, understand it very well, but that does not mean they are going to do well. I do not want to invest on hope or to become loyal to the companies I am investing in. That is one of my weaknesses in investing. The more time I put into a company the more loyal I become. ( I tend to be very loyal in my dealing with family and friends which is great for relationships just poor in investing). So now I want the companies I invest in to be loyal to me. They need to pay me my money or they are going to be cut. Just the way I am starting to develop now.

So recently Saul sold some of Syna, he might be all the way out now. He stated the reason he sold was because to much of his portfolio was into chip companies. I can understand and agree that is a great reason to sell. But I wonder if subconsciously he wasn’t noticing in the conference call that some other companies where poaching their IP and that Syna was going to court to stop them. This could end up being very expensive for Syna and would be another great reason to sell. I am still holding Syna but watching very closely.

So I do not want to follow anyone’s method of investing but like you Vic I have no problem trying to learn from successful investors and incorporating it into my style.

Andy

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What a wonderfully reassuring post on understanding the business. It certainly resonated with me. I used to feel a distinct guilt about investing in technology companies whose business I did not remotely understand. But I discovered that understanding the fundamentals was sufficient . The problem is, of course, that the best growth companies tend to be tech. companies and to omit the sector on purist grounds would be a mistake (or a mistake in a bull market anyway).

A certain risk does exist however: to be ignorant about what the company does is probably to be more ignorant than others about the competition ambush. Hence the popularity of toothpaste.

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So recently Saul sold some of Syna, he might be all the way out now. He stated the reason he sold was because to much of his portfolio was into chip companies. I can understand and agree that is a great reason to sell. But I wonder if subconsciously he wasn’t noticing in the conference call that some other companies where poaching their IP and that Syna was going to court to stop them. This could end up being very expensive for Syna and would be another great reason to sell. I am still holding Syna but watching very closely.

Wow, Andy, you were reading my mind. Although I probably never mentioned it, the suits against companies who were copying them did figure into my decision.
Saul

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