The Westport story that people are talking about

There’s been a lot of discussion (Mr Sideshow and Driller Jim) of the Westport story which got me a lot of attention back in the day, but a lot of you probably have no idea what it was all about, so I thought I’d clue you in: Westport was, is, a company that was trying to build big natural gas truck engines and establish a refill network across the country. They were a favorite of the Motley Fool and used as their advertising poster child. (This is the stock that will make you rich! Click here to find out more!). It was a great Story Stock! I was taken in at first too, and took a position for a while, but then I read the earnings reports instead of the MF puff posts, and exited. When I described why I had exited I got some appreciations, but some people on the board were furious that I had criticized their favorite stock, and I got a lot of abuse. I finally decided to make “one last try”. It was post #5686 on July 13, 2013. At the time Westport was selling at about $31.00. I believe the MF finally sold Westport in Jan 2017 at $1.16…That’s about 4% of the price I urged people to sell at. Down 96%. Here was my post in its entirety. I’m leaving it in regular print instead of italics so it will be easier to read. Occasional […]s will indicate comments I’m adding now. Here it is, the post from 2013:

I can’t help it. I’ll make one last try, in hopes it may help some Fools.

IT’S CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE FOR WPRT TO MAKE A PROFIT ANYTIME IN THE NEXT THREE TO FOUR YEARS. HERE’S WHY:

From their last quarterly report: Revenues $30 million, Loss $32 million. That means they burned through the $30 million of revenue and $32 million more. [In other words they took in $30 million and spent $62 million.]

You might think, okay, if they had increased their revenue by 100% and a little more, up to $62 million they’d have broken even.

But no way! Their gross margins were 27%. That means out of $100 in revenue it cost them $73 to build the engines that they sold for $100. They only kept $27 to cover R&D and SG&A (Sales, General and Administrative - the cost of running the business: offices, electricity, computers, commissions, salary of salesmen, salary of the CEO, etc etc).

That’s why they ended up spending $206 for every $100 in revenue

Now, let’s say, for example, that they had increased their first quarter revenue by 50% (or $15 million) to $45 million. And that they kept 33% of that extra $15 million (we’ll allow them a little better than 27% [gross margin] due to economies of scale). So they would have kept $5 million of that $15 million and their losses would have been "only” $27 million instead of $32 million.

If they had increased revenues by 100% ($30 million) to $60 million, they would have kept 1/3rd of the increase, or $10 million, and their losses would still have been $22 million.

You can see why a profit is impossible for the foreseeable future. It would have taken a 300% increase in revenue, $90 million additional (quadrupling revenue), for them to have come close to breakeven, assuming they kept $30 million of that as gross margin.

Their estimates, by the way, are for a 30% increase [not a 300% increase!] for 2013.

But that’s not counting increased SG&A expenses, salesmen, secretaries, salaries, offices, etc, to needed to service quadrupling sales. So they still wouldn’t be at breakeven, much less making a profit. It would probably take quintupling revenue to break-even.

I’m not saying that this estimate is perfect, and you might quibble that it would only take a 380% increase (or whatever) instead of 400%, or that some quarters might be better than others, but so what. That doesn’t change the basic facts.

It’s so awful that I understand your inclination to imagine that it can’t be true. But it is. THEY AREN’T LOSING 6% OF REVENUE LIKE AN ORDINARY COMPANY THAT’S IN TROUBLE. THEY LOST 106% OF REVENUE! (Right from the first page of their last quarterly report). That’s an impossible obstacle to overcome, or close to it.

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

That was it. The posters who were in favor of Westport never responded to my numbers. They just said I didn’t understand what a great opportunity this was. (actually it was the most horrendous example of a hardware company selling expensive machines to a limited number of companies that I can remember). When Westport hit $25, people were “doubling down” on the bargain price, and at $20 they were doubling down again. The closing price last week was $2.19.

It was after the Westport episode that people started urging me to start my own board, which I did in the beginning of 2014. We are now more than four years old.

Saul

74 Likes

I got pretty frustrated on that board. Looking back, here’s another post I wrote:

Hey XXX, I’m glad you’re interested in PSIX, but tell me, if you don’t mind, why are you personally staying invested in WPRT? I’m curious.

Consider in your answer that for every $100 of revenue, they not only burned through that $100 they took in, but burned through over $100 of cash more. They lost 57 cents per share in just the first quarter. And consider that there is NO possibility of them even coming up to break-even in the foreseeable future (multiple years), much less make a profit.

For 2012 fiscal year their revenues were up 54%, and their losses were up 64%. I’m not making that up. It comes from the first page of their press release.

Why would you invest in that? Forget about PSIX for the moment. Why would you not invest in a different MF choice that is rapidly growing revenues and earnings instead of a stock that will be losing money for as long as we can see? (In their quarterly report they said they confirm their estimate of “up to 30% revenue growth” for the year, which won’t make the tiniest dent in their losses).

I’m not trying to be a smart-ass here. I’m really curious. Why do you stay in something which is so clearly a bad investment? Some people don’t want to admit to themselves that they made a mistake? Others don’t want to take a loss? What? I mean there is no chance of a profit here ever, as far as we can see…thirty percent revenue growth means 2013 will be another year of big, big losses…

xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx

Boy, you could tell how frustrated I was.

Saul

9 Likes

That was it. The posters who were in favor of Westport never responded to my numbers. They just said I didn’t understand what a great opportunity this was. (actually it was the most horrendous example of a hardware company selling expensive machines to a limited number of companies that I can remember). When Westport hit $25, people were “doubling down” on the bargain price, and at $20 they were doubling down again. The closing price last week was $2.19.

Great post Saul…the description above sounds very familiar to another favorite in TSLA.

Have you ever done a similar analysis on TSLA financials excluding ZEV credits and including Solarcity and the debt burden of both?

This would be a very interesting read around here I would imagine and since the stock if off some 32% since we last discussed its prospects in earnest on this board, perhaps you might bring more clarity to bulls or bears.

There are many here with very large portions of their portfolios in TSLA…

7 Likes

And don’t forget musk taking SpaceX $ (nasa) and buying Solarcity bonds. NASA said no way!

Have you ever done a similar analysis on TSLA financials

Hard to do a similar analysis with the companies being in such different positions. Depending on the ramp of the Model 3, they are either making a LOT more money or not. That dwarfs the historical position.

Have you ever done a similar analysis on TSLA

Hi duma, I was in TSLA on the way up (60 to 95 or so, and then 120 to 180 or something like that). I love Elon Musk, and think he really has helped bring electric cars into the mainstream, but I don’t love the company. Building cars is a high capital expense, relatively low margin, business. Yes I know they are building batteries too and all the rest, but actually I don’t follow the company any more and haven’t for years.

There are many here with very large portions of their portfolios in TSLA…

I don’t know enough about Tesla’s current prospects to advise anything to anyone, pro or con.

Best,

Saul

7 Likes

“Boy, you could tell how frustrated I was.”

I remember these two posts so well that I can tell you where I was when I read them. I think my reaction to the first one was here comes just another guy who thinks he has all of the answers, but in retrospect.

The second one was “this isn’t fair, this guy is arguing with facts!!!”

Thanks for what you have built here, Saul.

Cosmid

3 Likes

Saul’s Westport story in OODA loop terms:

O - Observe: Westport is losing money
O - Orient: Westport can’t make money
D - Decide: Sell this loser
A - Act: Place the sell order

Denny Schlesinger

Gosh, it’s so simple! LOL

8 Likes

Saul, I remember these posts well. If I’m not mistaken, was this where you also published your yearly results for everyone to see. When you posted these, my honest reaction was this guy is fabricating. No way anyone could have those results!

Of course, I took your advice and sold Westport(thank you again), and low and behold found this board some time later.

I’m still not able to fully understand companies financials as well as you do. Still learning. Still very grateful.

Scott

The point of this anecdotal post is what exactly? To gloat? TMF picked a loser… So what? It’s the overall track record that matters. In major league baseball hitters strike out, pitchers walk in the winning run. Humility in all things.

4 Likes

The point of this anecdotal post is what exactly? To gloat? TMF picked a loser… So what? It’s the overall track record that matters. In major league baseball hitters strike out, pitchers walk in the winning run. Humility in all things.

The point is to look at the company and see if it can make a profit. And find out how much that profit is worth.

It is also warning against price anchoring. If you can’t pick that up, you might want to consider moving to all cash and keep studying until you understand it.

Cheers
Qazulight

21 Likes

The point of this anecdotal post is what exactly? To gloat?

To teach?

Denny Schlesinger

20 Likes

The point of this anecdotal post is what exactly? To gloat? TMF picked a loser… So what? It’s the overall track record that matters. In major league baseball hitters strike out, pitchers walk in the winning run. Humility in all things.

The point of this post was to re-visit a situation and some posts from a few years back that apparently provided some of the impetus for the creation of this board…which was sparked by the post linked below from MisterSideshow yesterday as a response in Saul’s monthly summary thread.

http://discussion.fool.com/my-portfolio-at-the-end-of-mar-2018-3…

5 Likes

I think that your analogy is a great one RoyGeeBiv, the part about the hitter I mean. The point you are inquiring about is also defined by your analogy, with good coaching the number of strikeouts is lessened don’t you think. Don’t get mad at the coach for illustrating things you shouldn’t be doing while teaching you the things that you should be doing.
LF

3 Likes

I forgot to say “Thanks Saul” for sharing and for teaching, and thanks to all the other sages on this board also.
LF

1 Like

The point of this anecdotal post is what exactly? To gloat? TMF picked a loser… So what? It’s the overall track record that matters. In major league baseball hitters strike out, pitchers walk in the winning run. Humility in all things.

I found this Westport post is one of the best to learn why some company cannot be invested in. I saved it so I can read it again in the future as a reminder. If you cannot see the value, at least show a little gratitude not just complaining.

24 Likes

There’s always someone who picked the winning playoff bracket, but having done so, their methodology is no better than “chance”.

With that in mind, the question of what was there to be learned through this pick would be best addressed by TMF. None of us know the motivation that kept this pick in the portfolio.

Happy Easter!

With that in mind, the question of what was there to be learned through this pick would be best addressed by TMF. None of us know the motivation that kept this pick in the portfolio.

I disagree. Saul’s analysis is a perfect example of how to check for the downside. Why TMF kept it is irrelevant.

BTW, I too followed Westport as at the time I was invested in alternative fuels. The story was compelling but not enough to make me buy WPRT. I’m not sure why not. Saul, by contrast, has a very good analysis to back his decision. I went by instinct, not nearly as good.

Denny Schlesinger

7 Likes

“None of us know the motivation that kept this pick in the portfolio.”

Precisely. Many of us who owned it new why we bought it: because it was in the SA portfolio. If those of us who owned it didn’t know TMFs motivation for KEEPING it, why would we continue to hold it?

And the WPRT story wasn’t anecdotal. Anecdote can’t be supported by research or facts. I suggest you look at Saul’s monthly summaries since the inception of this board and reconsider.

Cosmid

1 Like

I remember the wprt warning and when you were in psix.
Luckily I listened to you and got out
Would Love it if we could compare one of our new companies that’s not yet profitable and show how to differentiate the numbers. Basically simply explain how we see a good company that isn’t yet profitable and it’s road to profitability
Like shop, ayx, etc.
higher growth rate, higher gross margins, fcf, etc.
I still don’t feel like I can understand how to value these companies…
Maybe this is already posted…
I’ll keep reading
Thanks

1 Like