Things Not So Rosy in Ukraine War

Jaak: Putin needs to be neutralized just like Hitler was neutralized.

I might point out that it took a few million soldiers and the equivalent of trillions of buck four years to accomplish that.

The US and NATO are trying to avoid that class of event. There has been a reluctance to supply weapons to Ukraine which would allow them to significantly attack the Russian homeland across the border or to sink the Russian fleet (currently bottled up in the Black Sea by Turkey closing the Bosporus to warships.

====================================================================

I might point out that (1) Russian military is a straw man compared to NATO military, (2) NATO will not allow Russia to succeed, (3) more powerful weapons will be provided to Ukraine when it looks like Russia is making to much advance, and (4) NATO can sink the Russian fleet in Black Sea anytime they want.

Jaak

1 Like

All Russia needs is a stalemate as possession is 9/10 of ownership and there is little incentive for Russia to give up its expensively gained spoils.

================================================================

Any the gains made by Russia can not be held for any long period of time. There supply routes are long and costly. This along with sanctions will bleed the Russian military and economy to poverty while NATO nations keep supplying Ukraine with $billions for their military and economy. Ukrainians are eventually going to retake all Russian gains.

Jaak

1 Like

Reports have been that ethnic Russians in the Donbas are really POed at the Russians.

Perhaps some are. But the Ukraine since 2014 has been fighting anti-government separatist groups in Donbas. These groups are working hand in hand with Russia & supplied by the bear.

==========================================================

Russian soldiers have been killing Russian civilians in Eastern Ukraine. The separatists have not won the hearts ad minds of Russian civilians who lived peacefully in Ukraine until Russian Army invaded on 24th Feb 2022.

Jaak

1 Like

Thank you for recommending this post to our Best of feature.

Putin cannot be allowed to have a partial victory. He will simply regroup, rebuild, and try again. Only a fool thinks otherwise.

So yes, send weapons. Send lots of them, send them now, and send more in the future. Nearly all of our armaments were designed to destroy Russian equipment. Now is the time, and Ukraine is the place.

Now is the time, and Ukraine is the place.

Tru dat!

That needed saying again, so I did!

17 Likes

But the Ukraine since 2014 has been fighting anti-government separatist groups in Donbas. These groups are working hand in hand with Russia & supplied by the bear.

Not only supplied by, but the report is that many of the actual bodies are Russian in origin, just not wearing the insignia.

2 Likes

If we have learned anything from our domestic politics, it’s that loud, noisy, disruptive groups can appear much larger than they really are.

Could the same be true in the Donbas region of Ukraine?

–Peter
Let’s not conflate the two situations. Conflict in the Donbas since 2014 has been a shooting war unlike the political disagreements here.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/content/conflict-ukraines-donbas…
The armed conflict in Eastern Ukraine started in 2014.

Over the course of eight years, Ukrainian government forces fought Russian-backed separatists for control over much of the two heavily industrialised regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, also known as Donbas

https://www.promoteukraine.org/un-releases-data-on-donbas-wa…
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights unveiled the data on Donbas war casualties from 14 April 2014 to 30 June 2021.

“The total number of casualties related to the conflict in Ukraine is 42,500-44,500 people,” the Office said in response to an information inquiry from Radio Liberty.

The casualties are categorised as follows:

13,200–13,400 people killed (at least 3,901 civilians, about 4,200 Ukrainian servicepersons, and about 5,800 Russian-backed militants)
29,600–33,600 people wounded (7,000–9,000 civilians, 9,800–10,800 members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and 12,800–13,800 occupiers)
In general, over the years of the war, civilians have accounted for 25-26% of the killed and wounded.

1 Like

Russian soldiers have been killing Russian civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

Ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilian likely have been killed aka collateral damage by both combatants.

Russian soldiers have been killing Russian civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

Ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilian likely have been killed aka collateral damage by both combatants.

====================================================

That is not what I have been saying. The invading Russian soldiers have been killing civilians and raping women/girls indiscriminately - many of them are ethnic Russians.

Jaak

3 Likes

Jaak the Russian military has always indiscriminately killed civilians. We only have to look back on Syria Civil War. The Russians are ruthless & relentless in their pursuit of war. And savagery is occurring in this war also.
But the use of savagery is not restricted to the Russian military. Americans have only to look upon the world’s past wars to view it was utilized by others including ourselves throughout history.

The US like to talk of surgical strikes but thousands of innocents have died from the US Perpetual War foreign policy.
https://www.dw.com/en/us-drone-strikes-killed-thousands-of-c…
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/12/21/americas-war-o…

US military body count attrition strategy during the Vietnam War
resulted in tens of thousands innocents killed. My Lai was not an isolated event.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-23427726
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/nick-turse-us-mili…

South Korea illegally held prostitutes to “service” US military personnel.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/20/world/asia/south-korea-co…

War is a filthy rotten business. Humankind at their worse. Anything goes to win it or profit from it or pursue a nation’s goals. It is sold as a righteous, necessary mission & glory & patriotic fervor. But that is for the rubes eg Cannon-fodder

2 Likes

… and (4) NATO can sink the Russian fleet in Black Sea anytime they want.

Tru dat! Used to be big battleships had to get within range of each other to shoot it out with 14, 16 inch guns.

Then came airplanes and battleships could be sunk from hundreds of miles away by a small (cheaper than a battleship) airplane.

Nowadays anybody can sink a battleship or aircraft carrier from a rowboat.

It’s a whole new ballgame and the admirals are still trying to fight the old way*!*

Both sides will lose a few capital ships before the old admirals give way/are forced out by/to the new kids on the block.

Methinks we’ve got a head start what with our miniaturization techniques and lead in computers.

Those (combined with the great wealth we’re willing to squander on trial and error) will put US out in front in any war.

4 Likes

This along with sanctions will bleed the Russian military and economy to poverty while NATO nations keep supplying Ukraine with $billions for their military and economy. Ukrainians are eventually going to retake all Russian gains.

I sure hope you’re right!

2 Likes

War is a filthy rotten business. Humankind at their worse. Anything goes to win it or profit from it or pursue a nation’s goals. It is sold as a righteous, necessary mission & glory & patriotic fervor. But that is for the rubes eg Cannon-fodder

=========================================================

You sure are patriotic on this Memorial Day weekend.

But this war in Ukraine must be finished with NATO weaking Russia to the point it will not invade it’s neighbors.

Jaak

4 Likes

You sure are patriotic on this Memorial Day weekend.

Samuel Johnson:“Patriotism is the Last Refuge of a Scoundrel”

One of the worst massacre was not even an act of war but of sanctions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Halliday
Denis J. Halliday (born c.1941)[1] was the United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator in Iraq from 1 September 1997 until 1998.

After a 34-year career at the United Nations, where he had reached Assistant Secretary-General level,[3] Halliday resigned in 1998 over the sanctions against Iraq, characterizing them as “genocide”.[3][4][5]

Madelene Albright of the death of thousands of Iraqi children due to sanctions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gJfiKoKDs0

I know which side the divide I wish to be on.

2 Likes

more powerful weapons will be provided to Ukraine when it looks like Russia is making to much advance

US to Send Advanced Rocket Systems to Kyiv
www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-to-send-advanced-rocket-systems-to-…
The Biden administration is expected to announce as early as next week it will send to Ukraine long-range rocket systems…

Among the weapons the U.S. is expected to provide are Multiple Launch Rocket Systems, or MLRS, which are mobile artillery launchers that can fire dozens of miles farther than any current system in Ukraine’s control.

The U.S. is also expected to give to Ukraine High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as Himars. Those are light multiple rocket launchers with a comparable range to the MLRS. But unlike the MLRS, which moves on tracks, the Himars move on a wheeled chassis…

DB2

2 Likes

War is a filthy business?

Too easily said.

We are very threatened by dictatorships. Dictatorships are even more threatened by our democracies.

Until the more powerful dictators are gone there will never be peace.

Blaming the US over the same crimes of military actions killing anyone…misses the actual reality.

Someone on FB put up a map of the world. Then his voice over, “My American, Swedish and French friend could travel to all of this countries.” The map flips from a lot of green countries to a few green countries and a lot of gray countries, “I can only travel to these countries”.

My response to him, “Get rid of your dictator. I hope you are not saying we are to blame”.

5 Likes

<<Jaak: Putin needs to be neutralized just like Hitler was neutralized.>>

I might point out that it took a few million soldiers and the equivalent of trillions of buck four years to accomplish that.

This is absolutely true! If the world waits 5+ years to put Putin down, it could cost millions of soldiers and trillions of bucks. That’s why it ought to be done now.

15 Likes

This is absolutely true! If the world waits 5+ years to put Putin down, it could cost millions of soldiers and trillions of bucks. That’s why it ought to be done now.

It will be far more expensive than that. The Chinese despots are following this as well to look for weaknesses.

1 Like

<<Jaak: Putin needs to be neutralized just like Hitler was neutralized.>>

I might point out that it took a few million soldiers and the equivalent of trillions of buck four years to accomplish that.

This is absolutely true! If the world waits 5+ years to put Putin down, it could cost millions of soldiers and trillions of bucks. That’s why it ought to be done now.

What would be the Military/Industrial Complex’s “skim” on that?

Don’t forget that at least half of the money spent on Iraq and Afghanistan never got any further than the Washington DC suburbs.

intercst

1 Like

The U.S. is also expected to give to Ukraine High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems, known as Himars. Those are light multiple rocket launchers with a comparable range to the MLRS. But unlike the MLRS, which moves on tracks, the Himars move on a wheeled chassis… [Emphasis added.]

Dear DrBob2,

The HIMARS you describe were originally built by BAE Systems, but are now produced by Lockheed Martin Missiles & Fire Control in Camden, Arkansas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M142_HIMARS

It doesn’t take much imagination to guess how much cash or “protected free speech” each Congress member or their favorite PAC receives from defense contractors and military technology companies. After I heard that our noble leaders (working “across the aisle”) were pushing another $40 Billion in US taxpayer money for the Russia-Ukraine War, I bought some of the iShares U.S. Aerospace & Defense ETF (ITA), the largest defense & aerospace ETF, with its 5 top investments in the following:

Raytheon Technologies (RTX), Lockheed Martin (LMT), Boeing (BA), Northrop Grumman (NOC), General Dynamics (GD)

The Center for Strategic & International Studies, a D.C. think tank, serves as an important “revolving door” organization, along with the Pentagon and military suppliers/contractors, for each successive generation of interchangeable public/private leaders and diplomats, “making the world safe for democracy” - courtesy of the deep pockets of the US taxpayer.

https://www.opensecrets.org/revolving/search_result.php?priv…

Here’s what the Center for Strategic & International Studies says about the $40 Billion that our Congress, on a bipartisan basis, hurriedly and enthusiastically approved to extend and prolong the Ukrainian war for as long as possible (or at least through the November 2022 midterm elections).

Although some elements of the aid package will be available quickly, many will take years to fully implement. This raises questions about why long-term elements could not have gone through the regular congressional authorization and budget processes.

A key change is that the timeline for this aid package implies the expectation of a long war. Previous aid packages were designed to last a few weeks. No one knew how long the war might go on or whether Ukraine would hold out. Thus, packages were announced on February 25, March 12, March 16, April 5, April 13, April 21, and April 24. This package breaks that pattern. Instead of looking out a few weeks, this package goes to September 30, the end of the fiscal year. [Emphasis added throughout.]

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-does-40-billion-aid-ukrai…

Just as “war is good for business,” it also is “good for re-election,” forging an almost unbreakable symbiotic relationship that some in the past have warned against. However, a Stanford University professor once wrote a thought-provoking essay published in the Washington Post.

In the long run, wars make us safer and richer

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-the-long-run-wars…

In the above-linked 2014 commentary, Professor Ian Morris argues that global trade requires a global super-policeman, using some of Adam Smith’s own reasoning to justify the commingling of government and business.

[Adam] Smith realized, markets were so big that a new path to the wealth of nations was opening. Taking it, however, was complicated. Markets would work best if governments got out of them, leaving people to truck and barter; but markets would only work at all if governments got into them, enforcing their rules and keeping trade free. The solution, Smith implied, was not a Leviathan but a kind of super-Leviathan that would police global trade.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-the-long-run-wars…

If the Russia-Ukraine War can provide an opportunity for the US and its allies to “modernize” their arsenals with new weapons, dispose of their old weapons by giving them to Ukraine, and improve their capacity for manufacturing new, modern weaponry in great volumes - all while spinning off enough in profits to fund campaign contributions and donations to think thanks and universities - then war is more than hell. War is also heaven for those who can benefit from war, including those of us who engage in business and investing.

</cynicism irony and sarcasm off>

1 Like

Notehound,

Why are we always the bad guys?