THIS IS NOT POLITICAL - REALLY!

Industry Discussions Real Estate Inv. Trusts: REITs
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Anyone have any thoughts on regional water issues and their effects on economic and population growth.

Right now everyone on the Colorado River Basin should be concerned with DROUGHT ARMAGEDDON.

Much of Europe has similar issues, which may be a short-term issue and be for just this year. The issues on the Colorado River are decades in the making and while might possibly go away (or not) in 10-20 years they will be of major concern for at least the next decade.

I spent five years with the COE and oversaw water management and flood control over parts of four states including metro Atlanta.

I have been wondering about all of the growth in Texas. While Texas has the Rio Grande to the south and the Red River to the north, it does not have a lot of major rivers in between. Politicians (both parties) in my experience are more than willing to act like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand while promoting economic/population growth that is unsustainable in the next drought.

Texas uses a lot of ground water. While our drought issues in the Southeast were often solved by a single hurricane, aquifers once depleted are much slower to recharge, but I am really not that knowledgeable on ground water.

Thoughts?

Regards,

VM

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Thoughts?

I live in Nevada and this is a subject that many of us discuss. In Las Vegas they have had a boom in the population but they still use about the same amount of water that they did in the 1980’s. How is that? Well they have paid for people to take out their yards. When they do that they can’t replant sod. They also recycle all indoor water and that goes back into lake mead.

https://www.snwa.com/water-resources/current-water-supply/in….

Everyone along the Colorado River is going to have to get smart about water and how they use it. But of course all of the states are looking for ways to find water. California sits on a big Aquifer under the Mojave desert that hasn’t been tapped yet.

https://knpr.org/knpr/2019-03/lots-water-mojave-desert-shoul…

Southern Nevada Water district has been buying up Ranches in the middle of the state to get access to water. This is very controversial but they paid for the Ranches and the water rights.

https://www.8newsnow.com/investigators/i-team-special-report…

There has been talks about having a pipeline come from the Mississippi river to the Colorado river. This would have to be designed with large reservoirs to catch the flood waters and then have it piped into the Colorado. Of course states along the Mississippi are worried about their water, as they should be, but it would control flooding along those waterways that seems to get worse every year.

California is talking desalinization which could happen but is very energy intensive. California grows 70 percent of the produce in the United States and uses a majority of the Colorado River water.

https://www.farmprogress.com/commentary/california-farmers-d…

Personally I think the whole United States needs to get smart about water and find ways to ship it where it is needed. People that have the water complain that it isn’t their responsibility to the people who don’t have water. But those same people , when it floods, when they have tornadoes, hurricanes, fires. Come running to the Government to help them out year after year. How is this any different than that?

Andy

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Andy,

Some interesting points. I wouldn’t bank too much on water from the Miss. River being pumped over the Continental Divide. The energy consumed in both raising the water over the divide plus the friction losses in the pipe would be astronomical in terms of amount of energy and its price.

Then there are the political issues with taking water away from people downstream on the Miss. River.

I still have battle scars from dealing with FL, GA & AL over water from the ACF (Apalachicola, Chattahoochee, Flint) water basin. Water flows effecting different states are difficult.

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I know water is very contentious Valuemongeragain. While I am not anywhere near your level of expertise I do have a little knowledge, especially with the region I come from and water rights mean everything.

Your point about the Continental Divide is what I hear is the biggest detractor in a project of this magnitude. Maybe you can explain this to me? How can they have so many different pipelines for Crude oil, Natural Gas and refined oil, with some of these pipelines appearing to cross the Continental divide, and this wasn’t a problem. But with water it seems such a huge problem?

https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas/wells-to-consumer/tr…

Also, How can they spend so much money and energy, using planes to put out fires but to send water to another location that is to expensive?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INKf_r7Xtmo

I was up in Montana just recently and they had fires going on around the Lakeside area. Those planes were like a train, one after another, scooping water out of the lake and dumping them on fires. The planes were flown in from California to aid in the fight of the fire. The cost to the Federal government, IE, you and me is going up every year because the fire season is lasting longer and burning hotter. In 2018 it was over 3 billion dollars to fight those fires and in 2020 it was 2.2 billion but it is generally going up every year.

Also, If they could put a train tunnel under the ocean that runs 31 miles surely an engineer should be able to figure out how to take water under, across, or through the continental divide. If they can dig a canal 50 miles across Panama in the early 1900’s to connect the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, surely in 2022 they can figure how to get water into the Colorado River.

But I agree with you Value that it will be very hard to get everyone on board. This might have to be where the western states band together, because we have been in a historical drought for over 20 years, and buy up water rights across the states. Its funny, when I moved here in 1983 I saw the water flowing over Hoover Dam. Now I am seeing it dry up.

https://www.fox5vegas.com/2022/07/25/photos-show-historic-ov…

Andy

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Now this an interesting thread and I don’t have any answers. I know that in Phoenix the water table is dripping every year and has been for decades. Clearly that is not sustainable. On the other hand, I have a weekend cabin/trailer on the Ohio river and watch millions of gallons pass by every day. We seem to have more fresh water than we can use and at times way way way too much.

But people keep moving to the states without water…. No solutions here but clearly something has to change.

Randy.

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Anyone have any thoughts on regional water issues and their effects on economic and population growth.

Right now everyone on the Colorado River Basin should be concerned with DROUGHT ARMAGEDDON.

I’ve lived a lot of my life in the West (UT, NV and WA) as well as Texas, so this is an interesting subject. But what does it have to do with REITs? Seems like a more appropriate subject for METAR.

AJ

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Andy,

The main difference in energy consumption of pumping large quantities of petroleum products versus water is that the volume of water would be so much greater. Distances involved also might be a little more as well.

I serve on my hometown’s water commission. An average household in my area uses about 75 gallons of water a day. Throw in leakage, back washing at the plant, and fire fighting and 100 gallons a day per residence is a pretty good planning factor in my area. In areas where there is a lot of lawn irrigation or swimming pools, it could be much higher than that. I think most of us would agree that in drought stricken areas there shouldn’t be any lawn irrigation and private pools should be low priority, yet both still exist out west. Throw in industrial uses which can be substantial and the big daddy of water uses - agriculture.

I don’t know average gasoline uses per day per residence, but probably less than 5 gallons.

Another factor is the effect on those living in Miss. River basin, they have droughts too occasionally. I managed the Tenn-Tom waterway for five years and twice in five years navigation on the Miss River shut down due to low water levels, neither time lasted that long though.

Then there are environmental issues. The last dam on the ACF water basin was at Lake Seminole. Most of the lake is in Georgia, but the dam is in Florida. The state of Florida got a federal judge in Tallahassee to declare we had to keep flows out of Lake Seminole at 5,000 CFS to protect some endangered mussels. 5,000 CFS (cubic feet a second) is 3.2 billion gallons per day or enough for 32 million households in my area.

Desalination for Los Angeles might be a better alternative. Desalination is energy intensive as well, but there would be no issues of taking water from one area to another.

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AJ,

My initial point that I was trying to make is that water issues will increasingly affect economic and demographic growth. Therefore, it will affect real estate values and REITs.

I will give you an example. I dealt with metro Atlanta’s water issues for five years. One potential solution was to take water out of the ACT (Alabama, Coosa, & Tallapoosa) water basin and pump it over to nearby Atlanta on the ACF water basin. The state of Alabama block this in court. It literally takes an act of Congress to take water in any significant quantity out of one basin and into another basin.

The end result? Metro Atlanta has grown in a westerly direction along I-20 and into the ACT basin where they can take water more freely.

I think water will increasingly affect growth and therefore real estate values.

Regards,

VM

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Thank you for the discussion Value, it really is interesting.

The main difference in energy consumption of pumping large quantities of petroleum products versus water is that the volume of water would be so much greater. Distances involved also might be a little more as well.

I don’t have the expertise to see how much this would cost, but I do think a study could find that out. I once stood under the Alaskan Pipeline and that pipe was very large, The diameter of the pipe is 4 feet. The continental divide in New Mexico is “only” 4 thousand feet tall. My thoughts are that they could build catch basins and ship the water only when the rivers are flooding to alleviate the flooding of the rivers down stream. The cost savings of not having to fix the flooded area could help with the cost of the pipeline. Some of the catch basins would be closest to the Mississippi river so the pipes needed to pump the water into the basins would be short but larger. When the areas are in drought there would be no flooding so there wouldn’t be any need to pump water.

I think most of us would agree that in drought stricken areas there shouldn’t be any lawn irrigation and private pools should be low priority, yet both still exist out west. Throw in industrial uses which can be substantial and the big daddy of water uses - agriculture.

I agree Value, I live on a half acre and most of it was grass. I pulled out most of my lawn and now have only a small patch in the back yard, about 500 sq ft. The county has limited the size of pools that can be put in now. I still have my pool on my property, and it is something I would hate to lose, but it might come down to that in the future.

I really don’t know what the answer will be to solve this problem and it will probably be many different solutions. I would be for a moratorium on building, but I am sure that would be shot down. I do like that people are talking about this and seeking solutions, hopefully, with this historic drought, we can come up with a reasonable solution.

Andy