Thoughts on China

Please note that the below is necessarily grossly simplified from a subject which should (and does) fill volumes:

As pointed out in the book “Factfulness” by Hans Rosling, our viewpoints on countries frequently date back to what we learned in school from teachers who had no direct experience. I have found it useful to look at current events by trying to peer through the lenses being worn by both sides of an opinion.

There is currently tension regarding China’s and the US’s attitude toward Taiwan which deserves looking back on history.

First of all, before we discuss why there is there a Chinese government on Taiwan, we should look at the history of the island itself. It was inhabited by “aborigines” who are not ethnic Han (Chinese) and occupied by various European powers during the 17th Century. During the 18th Century, Chinese forces fought with the aborigines and eventually won control of the island. During the 19th Century, it was variously invaded by France, the US, Britain and Japan. The Japanese finally took control of the island in 1895. In 1945, the Japanese governor signed papers “restoring” the island to the Republic of China.

In March 1947, Taiwanese resistance is defeated by the KMT (“Nationalist” Republic of China). Starting in November 1948, 5,000 refugees per day flow into Taiwan from the mainland. In 1949, the KMT moves the Republic of China’s government to Taiwan and begins 38 years of martial law under General Chang Kai-shek. In 1964, the native Taiwan Hokkien language is banned from being taught in school. Martial law is lifted in 1987.

In the meantime, during the early 1950’s the US’s General MacArthur, in support of the “China Lobby” directed a Congress, during the Korean War crosses the Yara River - China’s red-line, because he grossly underestimated the abilities of the People’s Republic of China’s army to nearly drive the UN/US forces off of the peninsula if they wanted to. The ability to fend off the military advances of the US (and the USSR) formed the incentive for China to develop its own nuclear weapons. When hostilities ended, Korea was left divided between a dictatorship “dynasty” which continues to exist today and a dictatorship in the South which existed for decades until replaced with a democracy.

Anyhow, back to the Taiwan thing: Picture a civil war in the US which, due to a popular revolt against a corrupt government overthrew them. The government then escapes to Puerto Rico (an ethnically “different” island taken from a foreign power). The local population is disenfranchised, Spanish prohibited from being taught in schools, etc., etc.) and the new government on the island claims to be the sole legitimate ruler of the mainland US. In Taiwan’s case, the total population is about the size of a large city in a country housing a quarter of the earth’s population.

So, what was China’s history and how did it relate? China formed the “center” of the civilized world in north Asia (parallel to Indian culture being the influence in southern Asia, stretching through Indochina to Indonesia). In fact, the Chinese ideogram for “China” (more or less a box with a vertical line through it) is also used to signify the words “center”, “middle” and the size “medium”. The Hans (ethnic Chinese) first lost control of the country in the 12th Century to the Jin who came from Manchuria. This was followed in the 13th and 14th Centuries by the Mongol Yuan dynasty. The Han Ming dynasty took control back for a period of about three centuries before losing it to the Manchurian Qing dynasty which lasted from the 17th Century until 1912.

The Qings were corrupt, but the major challenges came from the Europeans which finally helped the “Republicans” led by Dr. Sun Yat-Sen to overthrow the monarchy. The government was weak and easily manipulated. The Yangtze River had foreign gunships patrolling it to “protect commerce” in the same fashion that multiple nations now petrol the Persian Gulf. Modern Shanghai still has areas known as the French, English and German “concessions”, names like Sassoon and Hardoon (originally opium traders turned businessmen/philanthropists based in Mumbai and Hong Kong) and memories of the US navy’s gunboats docked there.

Leading up to the Second World War, the Chinese Communist Party was evicted to the Soviet Union and Japan invaded Manchuria, followed by China. At the end of the War, the Communist Party which had organized resistance movements against the Japanese, turned their attention towards evicting the corrupt group of warlords who was running the Republic of China. While the Communists were not a benign group either, I’m not going to complicate this by discussing their domestic issues.

Anyway, after being evicted from the mainland, Taiwan’s government still occupied the China seat at the UN despite the protests of the vast majority of the body because of the ability of the US to veto changing the representation.

While there are precedents of countries breaking off from others - Republic of Ireland leaving the UK, Kosovo leaving Bosnia, Bangladesh leaving Pakistan and so on. they are rare and, in all cases, had a population which wanted to be “different”. In this case, the (Taiwanese) Republic of China continued to demand that there was only one China and they were the “true” rulers.

Anyhow, during the Nixon administration, Henry Kissinger was able to craft a compromise. It was clear that having a relationship with the People’s Republic of China (the mainland which housed 25% of the world’s population) was commercially advantageous to the US. We would agree to allow the PRC to take the China seat at the US and call them China (taking this status away from Taiwan). The PRC then said that, as long as the Taiwan government insisted their was only one China, they agreed and said that Taiwan was a “breakaway” province and their government was invalid.

An agreement to leave this ambiguity in place worked well, but each time the US (or one of its representatives) makes a move towards awarding Taiwan sovereign/independence/national significance, China is obligated to demonstrate that Taiwan, as an independent entity, only exists by their sufferance and they can overrun the island any time they desire. It is currently in China’s best interest to keep the status quo, but if we demonstrate that we seriously feel that Taiwan should break away from Chinese technical sovereignty, China would be forced to take the island regardless of cost. In some ways, this is parallel to some of the challenges with Ukraine. If, years ago when Ukraine’s government became Western leaning, we had not encouraged their decision not to renew the lease on Russia’s naval base at Sevastopol Crimea, there would have been no reason for Russia to invade and annex the area (and subsequently no requirement to take the area from Ukraine to its north in order to strategically protect it). Actions have consequences and sometimes it’s difficult to get the cow back into the barn.

In any case, we made a deal with China which should keep Taiwan autonomous into the future. Trying to expand this to full independence for the island runs a real risk of it being taken by China regardless of the short-term costs. My guess is that China would be “surgical” so as not to create risk to the US (and a military retaliation). There would be financial/commercial shifts, but eventually things would revert to the mean.

Jeff

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My guess is that China would be “surgical” so as not to create risk to the US (and a military retaliation).

You know how a war starts but not how it ends. If you don’t believe me, ask Putin! :wink:

The Captain

Chiang Kai-shek fled to Taiwan in 1949, that’s 73 years ago. There should be a statute of limitation about claiming sovereignty over land. Is possession is 90% of the law?

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Jeff,

Don’t forget cloak and dagger.

Quiet intelligence assets can be deployed that can be devastating.

I do not know what the political, economic and social weaknesses of Taiwan are. I have been to Taipei,(Highly recommend the Chinese museum if natural history particularly the clavicle bones exhibit.) Even though I have been there I do not understand it.

I do understand intelligence. Depending on your level of in roads into an entity you can create a great deal of pain. In a well organized and executed operation not only is no one sure who ran what type of operation, no one even suspects an operation was ran. Operations that have news reports, i.e. assassinations, sabotage and so on are either the results of inept intelligence or run from a position of weakness.

China has a society that was doing intelligence a millennium before the west learned to read. Moreover, Taiwan is less foreign to mainland China than Hong Kong is. Taiwan speaks Mandarin, Hong Kong Cantonese. Because of these things, it is my opinion that China has extensive intelligence networks inside Taiwan, in official, business and religious circles. Additionally, it would seem (notice weasel word here) that it would be much easier for China to be hacking in Taiwan than in the west. The social engineering is easier, the language barrier is non existent
and the familial ties are many and strong.

So while the ships are parading around for the TV cameras, the real work goes on like ivy growing on a wall. (Or if you prefer, a cancer growing in ones brain) In the mean time, power plants can break, dams can fail, politicians can be involved in scandals, banks can suddenly fail and labor unrest can rise at the worst time.

Watch for these things while the uniforms parade in front of the cameras. Yes wars really happen, but most are a failure of intelligence. (Unless they are desired for domestic political reasons) The most glaring example of an intelligence failure was Saddam Husseins invasion of Kuwait.

Cheers
Qazulight

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I agree with just about everything Qazulight said. Taiwan’s economic and social ties with the mainland are far stronger than most in the US suspect. Much of the posturing by Taiwan’s government is to get aid from the US and much of the posturing of US politicians is to cater to Chinese contributors to political campaigns. That doesn’t mean that mistakes can’t happen - which is why China makes sure to pound home that we shouldn’t interfere.

As a side note:

Taipei’s Din Tai Fung (https://dintaifungusa.com/) chain of Xiao Long Bao dumplings is ubiquitous throughout Asia and has now started popping up in the US. Regardless of where we are in Asia (Shanghai, Bangkok, Hong Kong, Tokyo - wherever), they are our fallback if we don’t want to bother hunting around for a clean, delicious inexpensive place to eat. While known as a Taiwanese restaurant, Xiao Long Bao are Shanghai soup-filled dumplings which come in a vast variety of fillings.

While NYC doesn’t have Din Tai Fung, very similar (and just as good) Xiao Long Boa are available from Nan Xiang Xiao Long Bao 24 W 33rd St, New York behind the Empire State Building (or from their flushing location at 39-16 Price Street, Queens)

Jeff

…In some ways, this is parallel to some of the challenges with Ukraine. If, years ago when Ukraine’s government became Western leaning, we had not encouraged their decision not to renew the lease on Russia’s naval base at Sevastopol Crimea, there would have been no reason for Russia to invade and annex the area (and subsequently no requirement to take the area from Ukraine to its north in order to strategically protect it). Actions have consequences and sometimes it’s difficult to get the cow back into the barn…

Well, Jeff, I can see two BIG differences between the China/Taiwan situation and Russia/Ukraine situation:

  1. China has never willfully “let go” of Taiwan; Russia not only allowed/agreed to Ukraine becoming independent again, but guaranteed their sovereignty! Ukraine is a sovereign country and can do what it likes with its territory, based upon their needs/desires…not Russia’s. A Russian Crimea naval lease in perpetuity was NOT part of that 1994 agreement.

  2. Like Hitler, Putin told the world what he was going to do regarding “Russian speaking peoples” and their territories that had become independent…way back in 2007 or even earlier. The West chose to ignore it. Trying to justify Putin’s actions a la China’s historical parallels or the West’s actions is ridiculous, IMHO, and parrots the “party line” that Putin desires. Putin cheerfully uses anything he can propagandize the war as “the West’s fault” to justify anything he wants to do.

Throw in the brutal and intentional civilian-targeting military tactics Russia has used and well, anyone who thinks the Russian invasion of Ukraine was somehow justified by the West’s "encouragement of Ukrainian democracy is being, IMHO, a “useful idiot”.

Oh, and let’s not forget that the US and Great Britain were parties to the 1994 Ukraine sovereignty guarantee, along with Russia.

History is rhyming again, and once again the West has set itself up for something far worse by dropping its military levels in hopes that Russia and China would “join the world community” peacefully, and then not taking stronger stances against Russia’s Ukrainian moves earlier.

All we wanted was “Peace in our Time”, so we let them take pieces of Ukraine with no real response…but look where we are headed…right back where we have been.

Sad…

Murph

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Because of these things, it is my opinion that China has extensive intelligence networks inside Taiwan, in official, business and religious circles. Additionally, it would seem (notice weasel word here) that it would be much easier for China to be hacking in Taiwan than in the west.

There is much to agree with in your assessment. I would note, though, that this works both ways (Mainland China → Taiwan and Taiwan → the Mainland). I was speaking just this week with a co-worker whose elderly parents are still in Taipei. She just came back from visiting them for six weeks and was leaving just as our legislative branch emissaries were arriving and before the military posturing that’s been going on since. She pointed out that many westerners do not realize how many people from both the mainland and Taiwan go back and forth on a regular basis, for employment, family, and even “tourism” reasons. Millions every year.

The Taiwanese likely realize the potential spy threats from the mainland and may have a card or two up their sleeves as well.

Pete

The Taiwanese likely realize the potential spy threats from the mainland and may have a card or two up their sleeves as well.

Pete

(notice weasel word here)

:grin:

Cheers
Qazulight

I’m wondering if the Chinese have not learned the lesson of Brexit and the 2016 presidential campaign? Sow disinformation and let the people do your work for you.

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(notice weasel word here)

:grin:

Disagree, or just pointing out that there are many unknown knowns in the world and not everyone has perfect knowledge? Every indication for the last few decades is that Taiwan has been able to deftly negotiate its political position in the world vis-à-vis the mainland and has also been able to produce one of the better economic stories at the same time. This [probably ha-ha] doesn’t happen while being asleep at the switch.

Regards
Pete

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Despite the antagonistic tone, Murph does make a good point - that Russia agreed to Ukrainian sovereignty and the PRC never agreed to Taiwan’s. In fact, the PRC’s position has been strengthened by the Republic of China (Taiwan)'s generation long position that there was only one China (which it claimed to be the rightful ruler of).

And yes, there is a difference between a hissy fit of encircling Taiwan with warships and bombing civilian areas.

So, he’s right that, while the issues appear parallel, the facts aren’t.

Jeff

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Jeff, my apologies if my tone seemed antagonistic or even a bit bitter.

I suppose I’m a little tired of hearing these sorts of comparisons drawn…and that the Ukrainian war is “really the West’s fault”… on many a news program…as well as out of China and Russia’s mouths.

Thank you for your objectivity!

Cheers!
Murph

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I’m wondering… from what I’ve heard it sounds like Pelosi did/is doing a one-city trip: the US to Taipei and then back to the US.

What if she had taken in a half-dozen or so assorted national and provincial capitals in various countries? And Taipei happened to be on the list. Those who want Taiwan to be independent could say it’s a national capital, while those of a different view could say it’s a provincial capital, and Pelosi could say “doesn’t matter which it is, we have trade interests there and that’s why I’m going.”

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Jeff,

There is a lesson for the west I fear is lost on you. We exert pressure on dictatorships just be our existence.

While Kissinger looked for compromises they are of short duration. This one with the Chinas is one of Kissinger’s longest standing compromises.

Ukrainians are not Russians. Russian history for some Russians is a rational onto itself. For the rest of us it is a non issue.

The People of the Han feel extremely strong about uniting with Taiwan. The Chinese mainland government wont last. Then such a reunification is more probable.

Western history is in a chronology that is lost on the Asian cultures with the exception of Japan that was never colonized. The resulting holding of Japan in the aftermath of WW II was purposely generous compared to anything prior in colonialism.

The reality is the west has been giving to China. That drying up because of the RMB peg to the USD and the Chinese desires.

We have a lot less to fear from a war with China or Russia than you are saying. Such wars would be a cyber stalemate with jamming of signals by all sides.

That does not mean a war is a solution. Just that no one here is really being held hostage.

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Jeff writes,

If, years ago when Ukraine’s government became Western leaning, we had not encouraged their decision not to renew the lease on Russia’s naval base at Sevastopol Crimea, there would have been no reason for Russia to invade and annex the area (and subsequently no requirement to take the area from Ukraine to its north in order to strategically protect it). Actions have consequences and sometimes it’s difficult to get the cow back into the barn.

====================================================

Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (ELL) also did not renew the leases for Russian naval bases. The Russians grudgingly left these bases and left all the crap to be cleaned up by the ELL. In Paldiski, Estonia, the Russians made the naval seaport the most important on the Baltic during Russian era, and during Soviet era they housed nuclear submarines and two nuclear reactors in the naval base. Russians took their submarines but left lots of radioactive waste and crappy nuclear reactors for the Estonians to cleanup. The Russians keep threatening to take back ELL countries. How is this any different than the Ukraine?
https://militaryheritagetourism.info/en/military/sites/view/…


Russian naval power is more constrained in the Baltic Sea today in comparison to the Cold War. Russia lost its maritime infrastructure and bases in the Baltic states when Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania regained their independence, and now only maintains naval forces and supporting infrastructure in Kaliningrad and in the vicinity of Saint Petersburg.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/resrep16803.pdf?refreqid=ex…

Ukraine has every right to reject Russian demands and reject naval bases on their territory. The neighbors of Russia have learn over hundreds of years that Russians will beg, borrow and steal your land and money without any qualms.

Jaak

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Trying to expand this to full independence for the island runs a real risk of it being taken by China regardless of the short-term costs. My guess is that China would be “surgical” so as not to create risk to the US (and a military retaliation). There would be financial/commercial shifts, but eventually things would revert to the mean.

Looking at the way Hong Kong has done in the 25 years since China took back control is likely a useful lesson.

I have not really followed how Hong Kong is doing but my impression is that it is more going in a different direction than “reverting to the mean”.

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While “MrPlunger” is likely the best one to ask, my impression is that, while the political environment has dramatically changed, life, in general, is pretty much the same as it was under British rule.

Like Shanghai, Hong Kong has more in common with major global cities than it does with small Chinese towns - much in the way that NYC has more in common with major global cities than with small US towns.

While the PRC does not tolerate criticism very well, they took Hong Kong because of the assets they added to the mix and are not about to destroy it - as long as it toes the line.

Jeff