U.S. and Chinese Automakers are Headed in Completely Different Directions

U.S. carmakers - whose once-lucrative China sales are withering - have withdrawn from promising markets such as India, Indonesia and Thailand to focus on their North American base.

As Chinese manufacturers try to sell as many cars as possible to keep their workers employed, their U.S. competitors are betting on making each vehicle sale more valuable by selling consumers software subscriptions for entertainment, hands-free driving and performance upgrades.

The Americans’ global retreat has boosted profits while leaving them with a narrower geographic base. Both Ford and GM retain dominant positions in North America and still produce and sell vehicles in China, the world’s largest car market. But their profits are largely made at home on sales of pickup trucks and sport-utility vehicles.

GM’s international retrenchment has been especially striking. In 2015, the company quit Indonesia two years after reopening a plant that it had first closed in 2005. In 2017, it left Europe after selling its two principal European brands and exited both India and South Africa.

Next to go was Thailand in 2020, with the GM plant there sold to China’s Great Wall Motors, followed by New Zealand and Australia.

From a financial standpoint, the strategy worked. GM last year earned more than $10 billion, roughly twice its annual profit a decade earlier. Ford’s earnings topped $4 billion.

But as American automakers were slow to introduce new models with the latest technology, Chinese consumers increasingly favored homegrown nameplates. Last year, more than half of the passenger cars sold in China were domestic brands, up from 36 percent in 2019, according to AlixPartners, a consulting firm.

GM last year sold half as many vehicles in China as it did in 2017; its income from Chinese operations has shriveled by nearly 80 percent since 2014. In the first quarter, the company reported a loss of $106 million.

Ford’s sales in China last year were down 28 percent from two years ago and its market share fell below 2 percent, less than half what it was in 2016. From 2018 to 2022, Ford reported more than $3.7 billion in pretax losses from its China business.

Even Tesla, which doubled its Chinese factory capacity in 2021, has been losing ground. Its market share in China fell over the course of 2023 from 10.5 percent in the first quarter to 6.7 percent in the final three months of that year, according to Bloomberg News.

Last year, China became the world’s largest auto exporter, beating Japan and Germany, according to Wells Fargo analyst Colin Langan. Even as it exported 5 million cars in 2023, China has excess production capacity of more than 11 million vehicles, enough to flood global markets with low-cost products, Langan wrote in a recent report.

Europe is expected to impose import duties of up to 30 percent on EVs from China in the coming weeks in an effort to protect domestic automakers, but some Chinese producers will still be able to earn “comfortable profit margins … because of the substantial cost advantages they enjoy,” the Rhodium Group consultancy concluded in a recent report.

Which of the above is the more successful business model?
It seems to me that China has long term view of their business and strategic economic objectives while the US has short term view of their business and strategic objectives.
Fortunately for the US, China has very severe demographic issues, otherwise they could bury US economically. China could allow immigration but likely they won’t as they are as racist as the Japanese. Japan has severe demographic issues also.

But can the US automaking industry continue to exist until China implodes demographically?

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I have commented about this several times over recent years. Ford and GM are seeking to increase ATP and GP. They are abandoning markets with great growth potential, because they are less profitable now, like India and China. Ford’s CEO has said recently that he sees Ford’s factories in China as a source for production for export, as they have failed to compete effectively in China. Both GM and Ford have exited India. Ford exited all of South America. Rumors persist that GM will shutter it’s Korean operation.

Meanwhile, in the US, the big three continue to shrink their product lines, from the bottom up.

Competitors have always entered the US at the low end of the market, which the big three leave wide open, as it is less profitable that big, expensive, cars.

Now, the Chinese are trying to get into the US market, at the low end, just as VW, Toyota, Datsun, and Hyundai all did in the past. So the US manufactures do the “free enterprise” thing, and go running to the government for protection.

Steve…has seen this movie before

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Define “successful business model.”

Okay, that’s a bit of joke - but China’s automobile industry looks the way it does because China subsidizes it and regulates it to look that way. That “business” model is can be enormously successful at growing the size of the industry…until it isn’t. If China were to cut those subsidies, the industry would suffer a tremendous hit - perhaps not as catastrophic as the Chinese housing industry has undergone lately, but still a sizable one.

Of course, it’s possible China will never cut the subsidies - but in that case, the “success” of the industry shouldn’t really be measured just by the “business” part of the industry, but also the governmental segment. IOW, the complete business might be losing money (which wouldn’t be a successful business model), even though the “auto company” part of that overall business looks profitable (or breakeven, at least).

From 30,000 feet, China’s basically offering the world a pretty simple bargain. “We’ll take a bath and lose a ton of money making and selling a generation or two of low cost EV’s to help address climate change, if you’ll open up your auto markets for Chinese exports.” That’s not really a “business model” kind of issue, and it’s one that’s completely orthogonal to anything that private companies can or should be concerned about with their own business models.

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Pretty sure this thread could have been titled “US Automakers worry about next quarter’s profits, have no idea what “long term” means.”

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Simple enough. The above is a simple SHORT term view of the situation. Longer term, this foretells a gross reduction in capability for equivalent products in every market the Chinese enter with these subsidies.

After years of cheap imports, domestic capability will have eroded to the point of dependance. This sets the table for inelastic demand to be fulfilled at higher reset rates in the future.

The time frame is roughly 5-10 years for capability to truly be idled/dismantled and irrevocably damaged. At least the car dealers will have something to peddle to the masses.

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I mean - maybe? The Chinese ran this play with the PV solar panel industry, gobbling up 80% of global market share…but it’s been close to 15 years now since they started, and they still haven’t squeezed prices up yet. It’s not entirely certain that a nation can “win” with this kind of strategy.

But regardless, the point is that this is not something that U.S. automakers can respond to. Chinese automakers aren’t executing a better business model than they are - they just have access to subsidies and free (or negative cost) capital that western automakers simply don’t. Other nations might choose a reactive strategy, like tariffs or industrial subsidies of their own. But those aren’t things that the automakers themselves get to decide to implement.

You wouldn’t be wrong if you said that GM or Ford would be better off getting the federal government to give them free land and free (or negative cost!) capital to build a bunch of new factories to build EV’s, and combine that with 30-40% lower labor costs. That would be a great “direction” to go in! But that’s not on the table for GM or Ford here in the U.S., and China’s not offering that deal to foreign competitors. So they can’t go in the same direction as the Chinese domestics.

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An example I am familiar with, the Ford battery plant planned for Marshall, MI.

Total government subsidies of $1.75B, and, Ford has contended that, as the plant is a JV, it will be non-union, with a compensation package far below that of Ford owned plants.

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Exactly. That’s the best that a U.S. automaker can do (and they’re doing it!) - and it’s not nearly as good a deal as what Chinese automakers had access to. Ford still has to pony up $2.5 billion to build the plant and build the infrastructure - the lion’s share of the $1.75B consists of indirect incentives that play out over time, like reduced taxes and such. Looks like they “only” got about $0.4 billion in direct grants and subsidies. Which is nice, but BYD alone got about $3.7 billion (nearly 10x) the amount over the last three years. That’s before you get into the subsidized financing and free land provided by regional and provincial governments. And even Ford’s non-union salary’s going to be much higher than what BYD has to pay.

No doubt Ford and GM will try to go in the direction that the Chinese firms are going (as you point out) - and the IRA’s got another $7.5 billion in direct subsidies coming down the road for charging infrastructure, if they can ever get any of that spent. But they can’t execute that “business” model the way the Chinese firms can, because the federal policy just isn’t there to the same degree.

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Perhaps it could have been. GM & Ford could have received Chinese subsidy if they had built factories in China that made EVs. Instead they made joint venture agreements with Chinese corporations that made IC vehicles.
Tesla meanwhile built an EV factory in China and received a $325 million subsidy.

In face of the US 100% tariff, China will likely direct its clean energy “overcapacity” to other nations in Asia and South America & Africa which will welcome the lower prices and will benefit the world in the global warming battle.

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…and do not forget that China already is invested in NAFTA member Mexico, and poised to expand. Details of that future to be determined.

d fb

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That is one unfortunate typo.

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:rofl: indeed, albaby1, indeed.

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Well, damn. Yeap. Gonna fix it.

d fb

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I heard a news piece on the radio that GM was dropping the last of its sedans. The claim from the GM mouthpiece was that US customers don’t want sedans any more. (I think it was GM, could have been Ford or Chrysler/Dodge/Stellantis - I suspect they’d all say the same thing, and it really doesn’t matter to what follows.)

So out of curiosity, I searched up the top selling vehicles in 2023. Found a convenient list of the top 25. Here you go:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g43553191/bestselling-cars-2023/

The top three are, of course, pickup trucks. Ford, Chevy, Ram, in that order. They separated out the GMC pickup for some reason and put it in 7th place. Last I looked, it’s just a badge swapped Chevy. Combined, the Chevy and GMC outsold Ford and left the Ram in their dust.

Toyota Rav4 is in a close fourth. 5th and 6th are SUVs - Tesla Model Y and Honda CR-V.

Then the first sedan. Of course it’s the Camry. Sedans continue, occupying 12th place (Model 3), 13th (Corolla), 16th (Civic), and 17th (Accord). All of those are built in the US, with US labor rates. Granted, I don’t think any are union shops, but even non-union wages in the US are considerably higher than any wages in China. Last time I checked, all three of those car makers were turning a profit (Toyota, Honda, Tesla). I’m pretty sure that if Toyota and Honda weren’t making a profit on these sedans, they wouldn’t be selling them in the US. (Tesla is a bit different - a topic hashed out quite thoroughly in plenty of other threads.)

My point is this. I don’t think US car buyers are uninterested in sedans in general. They’re simply uninterested in the poor price/quality options in sedans offered by the big 3. So they didn’t buy them that often.

Of course, none of this really matters (except to know that I don’t trust any explanations given by US car makers for their actions, but that’s nothing new).

Steve, you many now harp on ATP and AGP. This fits right in with that narrative.

–Peter

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Only 5 out of the top 25 selling vehicles in the U.S. are sedans? Only one in the top 10? That’s not a great showing.

US car buyers aren’t universally uninterested in sedans, but they’re vastly less interested than they used to be - the truck/SUV segment has been increasing since 1975 and shows little sign of stopping.

It shouldn’t really be a surprise that companies whose home markets are still thriving markets for sedans are the ones who can successfully compete in that space, and companies whose home markets disfavor sedans (relatively speaking) won’t find it as successful a segment to play in.

Albaby might wanna fix his quote, too…

Pete

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It is quite possible that China’s central planning committee has decided to shift its emphasis on driving economic growth through government stimulus from CONCRETE into cars. The central planners have spent the last 15-20 years on building some of the largest public infrastructure projects ever imagined and miles of high-rise housing towers because friends of the party identified ways of profiting from the continued cash infusions. Unfortunately, central planners failed to pick up a significant drop in the birth rate, leaving the country with MILLIONS in surplus housing units, putting the country’s economy on the edge of a precipice. This story first came to light about 10 years ago in 2014. It seems it took China at least 3-4 years to accept the problem and begin to make adjustments.

As cynical as I am about the design and manufacturing expertise baked into the average car coming out of most non-Chinese brands, I find it difficult to believe the Chinese have bootstrapped their auto manufacturing prowess to levels that match the average coming out of the rest of the worldwide industry. Unless maybe they stole the expertise.

Instead, I’m inclined to believe China’s central planners have instead decided to drive investment into cars because

a) it IS legitimately strategic for them to compete in this sector,
b) it definitely can sink large sums of capital as design and manufacturing capacity undergoes iterative improvements to catch the current state of the art and
c) we still need to stimulate the domestic Chinese economy to avoid a collapse and enormous political strife.

It’s possible the tens (hundreds?) of billions of yuans getting dropped into Chinese auto manufacturing yearly will help them accelerate their crash-and-burn iterative improvement cycle and put pressure on other world manufacturers. It’s also possible many of those billions of yuan are being squandered and grifted off the top as they were were during China’s housing boom.

This is another lesson of capitalism that’s impossible to learn in a centrally planned economy. There’s an upper bound per year that can be spent attempting to drive “innovation” into a limited pool of people in any specific discipline. Any spend over that limit just overflows the cup and gets siphoned off in the form of corruption or blown on bad lessons already learned but ignored.

WTH

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I’m not looking to my automaker for an “entertainment subscription”. I suspect I’m not alone. And if “hands-free driving” is a subscription service rather than an option that comes with the car, I’ll likely pass on it.

intercst

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If full FSD comes into reality intercst I would expect most of us won’t even own a car. If you can call one when needed why would you take on the cost?

Andy