UPST: General Thoughts

First, a big thank you to GauchoRico for providing the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2cKcXOwibA, a very informative interview with Paul Gu of Upstart. It is impossible to watch this interview without being extremely impressed with his technical knowledge and innovative thinking. While not being able to compete with the financial knowledge and stock savviness of those here, I’d like to comment on what struck me about the company from a technology perspective along with some personal notes about what I see ahead.

Data

There’s a path from data to information to knowledge with each being an abstraction of the prior. Today’s loan application analysis begins with credit purchase history (data), which is distilled into information (like a FICO score), and then supplemented by loan application info to produce knowledge about the applicant’s loan worthiness. Lenders analyze this knowledge to produce a decision on whether or not the loan should be approved and under what terms. The problem is that the lenders don’t know if the data they’re collecting is actually the most useful predictors of risk; they use the traditional parameters, set clip levels and conditions on various things, and then make a subjective judgement on how/if to proceed with the loan.

In the interview Paul said something to the effect that they have 1,000 data points on each customer record. You’d think that’d delay the decision process, but it doesn’t – it’s lightning fast. My suspicion is that the application contains only the parameters necessary for UPST to apply the scoring algorithm and that the remaining data points are added later and cleansed so that the model can be improved over time. This allows for minimal upfront data collection and speed in scoring. (At least that’s how I’d do it.)

As an aside, I really liked Paul mentioning an “efficient frontier” in terms of data – that you don’t want to gather ALL data but focus on getting the RIGHT data.

Datamining

I really, really liked Paul’s discussion of the company’s approach and he’s spot on in saying the field of loan processing was over ripe for just the kind of innovations UPST is bringing. I’m not current in the field as it applies to lending, but it sure sounds to me it’s really a disruptive technology.

Growth Potential

Because of its approach, UPST is not only going to get a sizeable piece of the pie, but also grow the pie of potential customers. Because of the company’s predictive model, it will qualify people who previously may have been rejected and lenders will LOVE the ability to decrease risk while also growing the business – what’s not to like? As word of success spreads, the need for a competitive advantage (or just to keep up!) may lead to dramatic growth. [Look out, FICO, somebody’s coming after you!]

Technical Moat

Nothing UPST does can’t be replicated, but the same could be said of AMZN. Certainly, other companies could purchase the same data, run some off-the-shelf datamining product, and produce their own less accurate but “good enough” models. What’s to prevent that from happening?

Setting up and executing a datamining operation of this scale is a pretty daunting task so among the only lenders which I think would dare tackle this would be major banks like BOA. Even so, I think that’s a small risk as they haven’t even tried to eliminate FICO. Speaking of FICO, they’d face the same challenges along with the very real fear of being rendered obsolete. That’s some powerful motivation.

Looking elsewhere, I can see a tech company trying to mirror what UPST is doing. IBM, Oracle, and others have pretty advanced data mining tools they could apply to create a scoring algorithm and then mimic UPST and/or license the scoring algorithm itself on a subscription basis.

In either case, UPST should be well established with documented (and publicized!) case studies which show their worth. That track record and good pricing should be able to stave off competition.

My Loan

Just for kicks, I used UPST to apply for a fictional $25K auto loan. The application was very simple and the results were lightning fast, but UPST’s focus on assessing individuals means that it doesn’t really address family loans. Example: Alan who’s retired and has a pension income might well be denied a car loan while his wife of 23 years and makes $200K a year would speed through. They need to take care of that. When they do, it’ll open the market even wider.

I bought some UPST this morning and I think I’ll be adding more in the future.

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My Loan

Just for kicks, I used UPST to apply for a fictional $25K auto loan. The application was very simple and the results were lightning fast, but UPST’s focus on assessing individuals means that it doesn’t really address family loans. Example: Alan who’s retired and has a pension income might well be denied a car loan while his wife of 23 years and makes $200K a year would speed through. They need to take care of that. When they do, it’ll open the market even wider.

Wouldn’t this potential issue be rectified by jointly applying for the loan? Or who is to say his pension income is not 12k/mo and would qualify based on that income/low debt to income ratio? Good question to ask but I think short sighted as same applies for when one applying for a mortgage, home equity or other loans…you can’t use income from someone not willing to sign for the liability.

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Good question to ask but I think short sighted as same applies for when one applying for a mortgage, home equity or other loans…you can’t use income from someone not willing to sign for the liability.

The underlying point was that UPST doesn’t handle multi-party personal loans so they’re not serving what I assume is a substantial amount of the market. That aspect, I think, should be fairly easily resolvable. I should have included that.

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For the “My Loan” part:

To add to that; FICO scores and loan applications never ask/verify about how much you have in bank accounts, Brokerage, and retirement accounts. It’s never taken into consideration. They ask about income, but they wouldn’t know if I had millions of dollars in those accounts. I have wondered why that has never been a consideration in FICO or loan applications.

Razz

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https://www.cnbc.com/select/what-is-fico-score/.

amazing what is not considered on a FICO score.

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I’m really enjoying these discussions of UPST and its potential new markets. I see a broad, deep set of opportunities for them. FICO really, really ought to watch out; the future is about to change in ways far beyond what they do now.

To speculate a bit, there’s another side to the equation that I wonder if UPST is considering as (so far) I haven’t seen mention of it. Imagine an n-dimension space which clusters which define “good risks” – what UPST mines for. Now do the inverse and mine for bad risks to see how fragile the borrower is with respect to falling into a “bad risk” cluster. [Think along the lines of “You’re like all the other people associated with this bldg and safe – but you’re also on the ledge and only a step away from disaster.”]

I’m new to UPST as an investor, and found one article of note, and have some work personal experience with loans:

~Wells Fargo is shutting down all personal loans and lines of credit:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/08/business/wells-fargo-shutting…

Also (anecdotally), I work as a design consultant for basement repair work in the Chicago Metro area. In home sales are a part of my job, and when clients want to move forward with the work I propose, I can get them a personal (construction) loan thru one of two sources - Greensky (for good+ credit, lines up to $60k), and Hearth (more subprime, higher rates, up to ~$25K). Both loans can be applied for via a mobile app on my phone, or via the website I keep on my laptop. Approvals/denials are nearly instantaneous, and the only info they ask for is name/DOB/SS#/Annual income/email. I’ve had mostly good success with both, but there are many flaws as well. If only one spouse is applying it may not approve. If someone has a credit freeze (and forgets to tell me), then it’ll deny it. If they’ve recently moved in and the address doesn’t jive, they’ll get denied. Most of the time I’ll have them call the service line right there and answer (privately) if there are things that need to be addressed (proof of income/residency, etc).

Overall I have no complaints about these companies, but the market for personal loans for construction is huge. Really huge. All those HVAC/Plumbing/window/basement/kitchen/bath/insulation (you get the picture) contractors use a lender or two to get their clients on board. I couldn’t find anywhere on their website if UPST currently does any loan offerings in this market or not, but it would be interesting to know if they are considering it.

R4M (Long UPST, but longer ROKU)

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Your post did get me thinking about some what if’s and me asking myself if I actually know enough about the banking industry to have the 14% position I have in Upstart.

Hi Willo
I, and probably you, do not know enough about the internet security industry to have the positions we have in Crowdstrike and Zscaler (I know zero about it), or know enough about the observability industry to have the positions we have in DataDog, or know enough about whatever it does to have the positions we have in Cloudflare, or about the internet data industry for our positions in Snowflake, etc. That is why we follow the numbers, and it seems to work very, very well, as you can see from our cumulative results. In fact we often seem to end up doing better investing in these industries than people who work in the industries. (For example, most of the people who stayed in Fastly said they did so because it had great “tech,” which they were looking at, instead of following the numbers which got us out.
Best,
Saul

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Your post did get me thinking about some what if’s and me asking myself if I actually know enough about the banking industry to have the 14% position I have in Upstart.

And as I recently pointed out (https://discussion.fool.com/an-addition-to-my-end-of-month-summa…), I am up 247%, 237% and 200% in Crowdstrike, Datadog, and Cloudflare, without knowing anything about what they actually do, simply by following the numbers. And I probably would have at least as good an idea about what Upstart will do as someone in the banking industry, who would probably pooh-pooh a little competitor while I see that they will triple their revenue this year, most likely.

Saul

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the market for personal loans for construction is huge. Really huge. All those HVAC/Plumbing/window/basement/kitchen/bath/insulation (you get the picture) contractors use a lender or two to get their clients on board. I couldn’t find anywhere on their website if UPST currently does any loan offerings in this market or not, but it would be interesting to know if they are considering it.

Thanks for the suggestion. I asked Investor Relations and they responded same day. Here’s what they said:

Hi Saul,
Thank you for your email. We actually do offer home improvement loans, within our personal loan offering (link below). Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything else I can help with.

https://www.upstart.com/home-improvement-loans

Regards,
Jason

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‘Following the numbers’ quarter by quarter, that is what this board is all about.

It works well i.e. the stocks trend and react accordingly in this timeframe- over several quarters.

The longer timeframe (longer than a few quarters) is not the point according to this approach. The only thing it can say is the product is great; the business is great; the management is great. Why wouldn’t it be given that the stock is up. That is only after the fact. The main thing are the numbers going in the right direction by an impressive amount.

What about the longer timeframe? Businesses are operating under different cycles and regimes. There are different macro conditions, and business particular conditions and cycles. Lucky if you starts in an up period. However, good businesses are able to be successful in many different kind of regimes and over the longer period accrue value for its investors. The trick for the investors is in how to assess a business and its potential. This assessment can take time. There will be up and downs in the numbers but one has to zoom out and do the analysis at a different time scale. Looking back hiccups are forgotten but real inflection point may not be recognized and the investment turns out to be bad. The ones who bailed have a smile but they did not really know either. They were just lucky. Of course nobody is timing the market. They are just different approaches.

There maybe many ways to shake the money tree but which one is better? Or are we going to ‘agree to disagree’ and say ‘whatever works for you’.

tj

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I am somewhat new to this board and want to thank everyone for their thoughtful, well-researched analysis and commentary. Board members are so insightful that I am almost afraid to post but I am going to conquer my fear, jump in and do it anyway. Please be gentle on me this first time!

I want to comment on the home improvement loans. Home improvement loans are just unsecured personal loans that you say you are going to use for that purpose. It’s sort of an honor system. I had earlier applied for that with Upstart to see how well they did and they delivered in spades on the quick experience, offering two rates quickly, but when I went to bankrate it seemed there were other lenders offering better rates. In particular, I got a car loan some years back from light stream (suntrust bank) at a rate that was so much better than anything offered elsewhere, and they were offering really good rates for the home improvement loans as well.

So to me, as Upstart has made very clear, Upstart is not a lender. They are a technology for lenders. They have also made it clear where there sweet spot is for now - people with lower credit scores who actually would be good candidates for loans, for example, younger people who have not built up their scores yet, etc. I’m guessing not the likes of most of us because our credit scores are probably not in their sweet spot. In the end, the rate will come from the banks using their technology.

That’s for now. Their Head of Product said that most of their loans are used for credit card debt repayment, which again, makes sense. Moving into car loans next make sense because young people are going to buy a car, in general, before they buy a house.

Their value proposition really is in the “credit score” they supply to lenders. And we know the results are phenomenal for that slice they are now going after. That is a good slice of the pie and they can play in that slice for a long time. But I think what remains to be seen is if they can do better on other risk profiles, for example, me - I have a great FICO score but atypical income source. It’s smart of them not to start there but will their AI give me a loan where others fail? I think yes but probably won’t know for years.

What I’m going to be watching is how many banks they sign up. I am encouraged by their move to offer an API on top of their existing white labeled experience because it’s a total no-brainer for a bank to take a score that is more reliable (not that they will necessarily do that, haha) without having to buy the whole enchilada (white label experience). I haven’t looked into this but I imagine they will price their score on a per access basis and if they can prove the ROI of that access (which I am sure they can) then the dominos will start to fall.

From my perspective, then, they are moving in all the right directions. It’s all about execution now, which to me is about signing up the lenders to use their score.

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Ugh, my first post and I’m already having to post a follow up.

My concern is that FICO is a 15B company and UPSTART is already a 9B company. So I guess that confuses my theory that the “credit score” offered by UPSTART is the primary value proposition.

Thoughts by others? Rip me apart but please do it gently…

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But I think what remains to be seen is if they can do better on other risk profiles, for example, me - I have a great FICO score but atypical income source.

Mizzmonika,

It would be difficult for lenders to justify Upstart taking a cut in underwriting those with good credit scores because inefficiencies are far lower in that range. I doubt they can compete in that market. However the near and below prime market continues to be very ripe for disruption.

“According to Upstart, as of June 2020, 45.5% of Upstart borrowers were low- and moderate-income individuals.
Upstart also represents that, as of Q4 2019, about 36% of Upstart borrowers had no college degree and less than 5% of Upstart borrowers had a credit score that was greater than 750.”

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