Criminal liability against Trump

AD asked on a politics free board:

On a completely different note - two or so years ago, you voiced the opinion that Trump would never be held criminally liable for anything. What do you think the likelihood is now?

I have the same opinion. It’s unlikely that Trump will be convicted for any crime. Or at least, any crimes based on the stuff that’s being publicly discussed.

Most of the crimes he’s accused of are specific intent crimes where the prosecution is unlikely to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he had the requisite state of mind for his actions to be criminal. You’re allowed to use noncriminal means to persuade elected officials to take noncriminal actions to advance a cause you genuinely believe is valid - and because Trump has been consistent (perhaps to his detriment) in insisting that he was trying to correct a wrong, not perpetrate one, that’s going to be tough to overcome.

Most of the other potentially criminal stuff are things where the prosecution is unlikely to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump was the guilty party. Stuff like the inconsistent property valuations, the fundraising emails, even potential missing records. Trump didn’t prepare his own appraisals, he didn’t prepare (and likely didn’t even read) those financial statements, he certainly didn’t write or read his fundraising emails, and likely had no role whatsoever in boxing up stuff from the WH as he was scrambling to get out the door.

I’m hard pressed to think of any specific charge that is likely to stick. Have you a particular one you thought had changed?

Albaby

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The probability of Trump being jailed has certainly increased a lot in the last 13 days, hasn’t it.

The probability of Trump being jailed has certainly increased a lot in the last 13 days, hasn’t it.

I think the MacDonald’s menu will get him first?

https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&…

The Huge Meal Donald Trump Reportedly Orders At McDonald’s

Tim

The probability of Trump being jailed has certainly increased a lot in the last 13 days, hasn’t it.

I don’t think so. I can’t see the DOJ bringing charges against Trump for document mishandling, unless there’s just something ridiculously unlikely in the docs they recovered. Especially since they will have a difficult time proving up that Trump had knowledge of any specific document in the boxes. If there’s some nuclear secrets in his personal safe, then there might be a remote chance of bringing charges…but even then, absent some external evidence that he was planning to disclose that information, I can’t see them being willing to bring a case.

It’s entirely possible that they bring charges against one or more of Trump’s representatives - I wouldn’t be entirely shocked if they charged the lawyer who falsely claimed that they had turned over all the classified-marked documents. Maybe that person has something they can provide that might result in realistic charges against Trump? I kind of doubt it. Trump has shown himself to be pretty canny about making sure that junior-grade minions don’t get the goods on him.

I don’t think there’s anything coming out of the investigation of the Trump Organization that’s likely to land Trump personally in jail, either, unless his folks really failed to do the proper CYA routine.

Albaby

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I don’t think so. I can’t see the DOJ bringing charges against Trump for document mishandling, unless there’s just something ridiculously unlikely in the docs they recovered. Especially since they will have a difficult time proving up that Trump had knowledge of any specific document in the boxes. If there’s some nuclear secrets in his personal safe, then there might be a remote chance of bringing charges…but even then, absent some external evidence that he was planning to disclose that information, I can’t see them being willing to bring a case.

I differ on this one point. Trump (through his lawyers) appears to have told the DOJ that all documents were returned. That means that he would have to be aware that he was illegally retaining boxes and boxes of documents.

To me, that means that this is no longer about which flunky boxed up the stuff and took it to Mara Lago with or without Trump’s knowledge in the first place. His willful and knowingly continued illegal retention of documents would seem to now make him culpable - where as if they had returned them all prior likely would not.

I doubt he could convince a jury that he was not aware that he had government documents in his safe that the DOJ informed him were being held illegally.

Either Trump’s lawyers lied (doubtful) or he lied to his lawyers (more likely).

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Maybe that’s for the best. I wonder how the GOP is going to structure their primaries if Trump wants to run.

Trump (through his lawyers) appears to have told the DOJ that all documents were returned. That means that he would have to be aware that he was illegally retaining boxes and boxes of documents.

I think that’s incorrect. Per various media reports, Trump’s lawyers told DOJ that all documents with classified markings had been returned:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-lawyer-june-said-clas…

So while he certainly was aware that not every document in those boxes was returned (the boxes were still there), he’s still got some plausible deniability - especially if he delegated the task of going through the boxes and signing the response letter to a minion or henchman or lawyer. If he can claim, without being contradicted, that he told his folks to respond to the request for documents and that he thought that the request had been complied with, he can raise reasonable doubt that the “knowingly and willfully” element of the statute had been satisfied.

There might be an issue with the documents in his safe, if the DOJ can prove that none of the people responding to the document request were given access to it. But there’s no guarantee that any of the specific types of documents that can give rise to criminal liability, because the availability of criminal charges is different for different types of documents.

For documents in the safe, 18 USC 793 is the easiest to prove intent. That section makes it a crime to refuse to give back documents when requested by the government to return them, and only the refusal to return the documents has to be willfully and knowingly. That might be easy to prove. But it has to be defense information, and we have no way of knowing whether the stuff in the safe was defense info, or just other documents (like his notes on pardoning Roger Stone).

The other two sections have harder intent requirements. 18 USC 1519 makes it a crime to either “destroy” or “conceal” a public document, but only if it’s done so with the intent to obstruct an investigation - a separate intent requirement that may be hard to prove. 18 USC 2071 is the generic prohibition on “willfully and unlawfully” concealing or removing public records that have been filed with a court or a ‘public office’ or ‘officer’ of the U.S. (which would presumably include the President) - but then you’re in a tangle over whether that requires you to prove that Trump had an unlawful intent in removing/concealing the documents.

I think they might squeeze the lawyer-minion a bit. If that person flips and can testify to something material and relevant regarding the documents, then maybe something might come out of this? Color me skeptical - Trump’s many things, but he’s pretty canny about not giving people outside of his ‘circle of trust’ any rope to hang him with.

If he can claim, without being contradicted, that he told his folks to respond to the request for documents and that he thought that the request had been complied with

Lots of reports seems to indicate that he knew - or should have known through his attorneys. Again, someone seems to have willfully violated the law.

For example:

Trump’s inner circle knew the White House documents were a ‘big problem’ and worried since June that the former president was getting himself into legal trouble: report
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trumps-inner-circle-knew-white-02…

Snip:

Trump’s attorneys previously asked for more time to review the [classified] documents to see if any of them fell within the purview of executive privilege, according to the letter.

“I have therefore decided not to honor the former President’s “protective” claim of privilege,” Steidel wrote. “For the same reasons, I have concluded that there is no reason to grant your request for a further delay before the FBI and others in the Intelligence Community begin their reviews.”

FBI officials would raid Trump’s Mar-a-Lago home on August 8. The letter revealed that Trump had taken more than 700 pages of classified documents.


Trump’s attorney’s KNEW that there were still classified documents at Mara a Lago. It has to be assumed that those attys either told Trump this or were instructed by Trump to delay their return. With Trump now asking for those documents to be returned, I fail to see how this can be yet another defense of ignorance on the part of Trump.

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Trump’s attorney’s KNEW that there were still classified documents at Mara a Lago. It has to be assumed that those attys either told Trump this or were instructed by Trump to delay their return.

Ah, but that’s the thing with criminal statutes. You don’t get to ‘assume’ that the elements of a crime have been met. You have to prove them, with evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt.

That’s going to be hard to do - again, because you have to establish that Trump had actual knowledge that documents relating to the national defense (not merely classified documents) were unlawfully retained at Mar-a-Lago in order to get liability under 18 USC 793. Since he almost certainly didn’t review the documents himself, and possibly hasn’t even been in that basement in the time between June and the raid, that’s going to be hard to prove. Since the door was locked during that time and there’s security footage, he’s got a pretty good shot at raising reasonable doubt that he had any direct knowledge of what remained in those boxes, without having to testify personally. Unless the FBI can get a witness that puts him the room looking in the boxes…which seems unlikely.

Can you impute his attorney’s knowledge to him? Only if you can get that attorney on the stand testifying that they told him that documents relating to the national defense were retained. I doubt that happened with enough specificity to make the charge stick, even if they can get the attorney to testify.

Albaby

Since he almost certainly didn’t review the documents himself…

There’s this, however: “Mr. Trump went through the boxes himself in late 2021, according to multiple people briefed on his efforts, before turning them over.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/22/us/politics/trump-mar-a-l…

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That’s the wrong time frame for establishing criminal liability under the statute, though. He’s going to assert that he thought that all the required documents were returned when they were reviewed in response to the subpoena in June. That he reviewed them at an earlier time won’t refute that.

Beyond reasonable doubt is the standard, correct?

Trump lawyer appeared to agree he should return government documents, old email shows, undermining his later defense
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-lawyer-appeared-agree-retur…

He said they had not been given back “despite a determination by Pat Cipollone in the final days of the administration that they need to be.”

“We know things are very chaotic, as they always are in the course of a one-term transition,” Stern wrote. “… But it is absolutely necessary that we obtain and account for all presidential records.”


Clearly the lawyers knew that the documents needed to be returned. Should we not be at the point where it would be beyond reasonable doubt that the POTUS was informed by his attorneys that they think the documents should be returned? It is unreasonable to assume that Cipollone said such in an email but didn’t say so to his client.

He’s going to assert that he thought that all the required documents were returned when they were reviewed in response to the subpoena in June.

Why does that matter? The crime was ALREADY committed. Telling a speeder to pull over [to stop speeding] doesn’t mean that you no longer committed a crime. The subpoena just substantiates the fact that a crime was already committed.

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Why does that matter? The crime was ALREADY committed. Telling a speeder to pull over [to stop speeding] doesn’t mean that you no longer committed a crime. The subpoena just substantiates the fact that a crime was already committed.

Not in this case.

Remember, there are three statutes that were cited in the search warrant. The one with the easiest intent requirement to prove is 18 CFR 793, which provides (in relevant part):

(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of [lengthy description of defense information] willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

The crime isn’t that he retained the documents when he left office. The crime is failing to deliver it when a U.S. officer demands the documents back. If Trump can produce evidence that he directed his agents (employees or lawyers) to give back all the documents that the government was entitled to, that he knew a tranche of documents was returned to the government, and that he was not thereafter informed of what documents were retained, it will be difficult to meet this burden of proof. If he can raise reasonable doubt as to whether he knew that any defense documents were among the ones that weren’t given back, he can get out of this statute.

The other two statutes have looser requirements for the actions involved. He merely has to have had done some prohibited things with any government documents, and they don’t have to be defense documents. But they have tougher intent provisions. One of them you have to prove that his intent was to obstruct an investigation - which will be very hard, since he can easily show other motivations as alternatives for why he kept the documents (like boosting his ego).

The last is the generic “stealing documents from the government” statute, but the language is a little tricky.

Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2071

You have to show that he unlawfully removed or concealed the documents. But if the documents were removed while he was still President, it’s hard to argue that the removal was unlawful - because at the time, he had the authority to direct that they be moved to Mar-a-Lago. He certainly retained the documents thereafter - but that’s not one of the things that statute prohibits. Did he “conceal” them unlawfully? Again, hard to say - because if he moved them to Mar-a-Lago while he was President, then he didn’t take any unlawful actions to conceal them - all his actions hiding them away were done while he was President. “Conceal” probably isn’t the same as “fail to disclose” - and virtually all the records were shown to the government agents when they came to review the documents at Mar-a-Lago, just not returned to the government. It might be hard to pin a “conceal” charge on him for those documents.

That just leaves the documents in the safe - and we don’t what those are. Those probably give him the worst exposure, since (unlike the basement) there’s a good chance that a jury would believe that Trump knew the contents of his own safe, and would have known that none of those documents were returned.

Albaby

Thank you…

he had the authority to direct that they be moved to Mar-a-Lago.

Why would he have authority to move SCIF documents to an unsecured location? Even the POTUS can’t handle those documents willy nilly. The law requires that they be stored in a very specific manner (heck, the fact that they were even removed from the SCIF rooms would suggest governmental policy was likely violated).

I still fail to see how 1924 doesn’t apply:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.


That doesn’t state that you must turn them over when asked. The knowing removal and retention of the documents appears sufficient. Trump’s attorney’s KNEW that the documents were both classified and being retained at an unauthorized location. Whether or not the government had formally requested their return seems irrelevant in this case.

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Why would he have authority to move SCIF documents to an unsecured location? Even the POTUS can’t handle those documents willy nilly. The law requires that they be stored in a very specific manner (heck, the fact that they were even removed from the SCIF rooms would suggest governmental policy was likely violated).

My understanding is that the classification status of any given document is created by executive order, not by statute (with some exceptions for nuclear information and other very specific categories of documents probably not relevant here). So if the President decides he wants to take a SCI document outside of a SCIF - even hand it to a foreign dignitary - he’s allowed to do it. While President, Trump had the authority to take any action with respect to these documents that he wanted to.

Which is why 18 USC 1924 doesn’t apply. It only prohibits people from removing such documents “without authority” with intent to either retain them at an unauthorized location. The President, while he was President, had plenary authority to move classified documents to wherever he wanted them to be - or to authorize a location for them to be at. Unlike 18 USC 793, this statute doesn’t address retaining the documents once they’re in place - the criminalized action is removal, not retention.

Albaby

So if the President decides he wants to take a SCI document outside of a SCIF - even hand it to a foreign dignitary - he’s allowed to do it. While President, Trump had the authority to take any action with respect to these documents that he wanted to.

Interesting. The proverbial jury is still out on that point:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classif…

A rare exception, where Congress has tied a law to the classification system, is Section 1924 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, which makes the unauthorized retention or removal of classified material a crime. But that was not one of the laws that was listed in the search warrant as a focus of the investigation.

Do presidents have to obey the usual procedures?
There is no Supreme Court precedent definitively answering that question.

Even if it is true that Mr. Trump had pronounced the documents declassified while he was in office, he clearly did not follow the regular procedures.

In the unlikely event that the Justice Department were to charge him under the law that makes the unauthorized retention or removal of classified material a crime — despite not listing it as a focus of the investigation in the search warrant — a novel question would arise if Mr. Trump were then to repeat the claim as a defense.


If we were to agree that while as POTUS, he had the authority to mishandle documents any way he seemed fit, he certainly loses that right when he is no longer POTUS and his continued retention of those documents would seem to violate the law - in the same manner that a driver would violate the law if they were legally driving 45 but did not slow down when the road became a school zone. He lacked authorization to retain them and it took many requests over 18 months plus a subpoena to get them back. There is no telling who had access to those documents over that period.

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If we were to agree that while as POTUS, he had the authority to mishandle documents any way he seemed fit, he certainly loses that right when he is no longer POTUS and his continued retention of those documents would seem to violate the law…

No, his continued retention of those documents wouldn’t violate the law. Or at least, not that law.

Again, here’s the text of 18 USC 1942(a) in full:

Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than five years, or both.

You can only violate this law by removing classified documents without authority. It doesn’t make it a crime to retain them. Retention is part of the intent element of the crime; to be criminal, your removal of the classified material has to be with the intent to retain them in an unauthorized location. But the act that is criminalized is the removal, not the retention.

It’s a different law than speeding. It’s drafted differently. By its terms, it just doesn’t apply if someone moved documents with authority to a location, but was later stripped of that authority (for whatever reason) but still retained them.

Wrongful retention of documents is made a crime by 18 USC 793 - but that only applies to national defense documents, not classified documents generally. If you can prove that Trump knew that the documents he retained still contained national defense documents after the tranche of documents was returned to the government, you could get him on that. But I don’t know how you prove that unless one or more of those documents came from his safe, rather than the basement.

Albaby

He’s going to assert that he thought that all the required documents were returned when they were reviewed in response to the subpoena in June.

But insofar as (on this theory) TFG cannot deny knowing that sensitive documents were in his possession as of late 2021, does he not have a responsibility to confirm that all of those documents were in fact returned as required? Can he really get off simply by asserting, “I told Pat [or whomever] to give them everything they wanted, and I assumed he did as I’d asked”?

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No idea if this changes anything but this immediately jumped out at me:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000182-daec-dfd1-adef-dafe7…

Snip:

The government is conducting a criminal investigation concerning the improper removal and storage of classified information in unauthorized spaces, as well as the unlawful concealment or removal of government records.


Still reading the rest of it.

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Obstruction of justice being added:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-justice-dept-responds-trump-033…

In a 54-page filing, prosecutors on Tuesday laid out their evidence of obstruction of justice, alleging publicly for the first time that Trump aides both falsely certified in June that the former president had returned all the government records he had stored in his home after leaving the White House in January 2021.

It also revealed that Trump lawyers “explicitly prohibited government personnel from opening or looking inside any of the boxes” inside a storage room when FBI agents first traveled to his Palm Beach Mar-a-Lago resort in June to retrieve the records.

“The government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the Storage Room and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government’s investigation,” the department said in a filing in U.S. District Court in the Southern District of Florida.


Either the lawyers or Trump have got to go down for this.

Hawkwin
Who thinks both in light of the above.

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