Woo-Hoo! All 17 counts?
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Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.
That’s the way the jury did it. On the “not guilty” side there was this:
[. ] (nothing)
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The Trump Organization could face a maximum of $1.61 million in fines when sentenced in mid-January. The company is not at risk of being dismantled because there is no mechanism under New York law that would dissolve the company. However, a felony conviction could impact its ability to do business or obtain loans or contracts.
Doesn’t really seem that impactful. 1.6 million seems like a slap on the wrist.
Andy
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Taxes.
A world that eventually got complicated enough for ME that I began using TurboTax years ago. Alternative Minimum Tax and stuff like that.
On a whole other plane is taxes for the wealthy and large corporations. They hire bunches of accountants and lawyers to investigate and develop ways to avoid tax. Sometimes those are challenged by the IRS, sometimes not.
In the case in point, I’m not sure it’s all that black and white… but could quite probably be another case of the accountants and lawyers pushing a tax avoidance mechanism that in this case the authorities wouldn’t accept. They kept resisting the tax authorities until the tax authorities started waving the “criminal” flag. I’m not here to defend Trump… I wish he’d shut up and disappear. But I AM saying that the tax laws… and lawyers… and accountants… and the authorities… have plenty of ambiguity to fight over.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Right Rob and there are plenty of people and industries that want to keep it that way. Where would turbotax be if I could just pay my taxes and not have to fill out a tax report every year.
Andy
As a tax accountant, there are some things to wrangle about in the law, but this isn’t one of them. I’m not so brazen as to call this issue black and white. But at worst, it’s a very light shade of gray and banker’s gray. (Banker’s grey - the color of the first suit I bought. I called it black - the salesman told me it was banker’s gray.)
The verdict does not surprise me at all. It’s about the only thing the jury could do given the law and the facts of the case. If there are accountants or lawyers who knew about this scheme and signed tax returns anyway, their licenses to practice are likely at risk. It’s that clear.
–Peter
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I presume you’re basing your opinion on the news? Or have you examined the evidence directly? (A: Well… the news, actually).
Are any of us aware of what evidence was excluded on either side?
Personally, I’m skeptical of just about everything in government these days. Liars on all sides. Justice seems elusive.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
No, but the verdict was unanimous among 12 jurors (13 actually, as one of the alternates also said she would have voted to convict), and the judge, who had the option to throw out the case and/or verdict and didn’t. Moreover, it took them around 6 hours to reach 17 verdicts, so that’s pretty textbook “easy verdict.”
Well that’s unfortunate, since “government” is the only thing standing between anarchy and order.
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Good point.
Yes. That’s part of what’s so sad.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
Actually, my opinion is more based on the law. What the Trump Organization was accused of doing is clearly against the tax law. There is simply no question there.
It’s perfectly fine to compensate employees with tuition and rent payments and many other sorts of in-kind compensation. That’s not the problem. The problem is in failing to report that as compensation on a W-2.
So the facts come down to two very simple questions. Was the compensation paid as accused? Was the compensation properly reported? These are not difficult facts to prove or disprove.
The IRS and other tax authorities have way more work to do than time to do it. They are not going to spend time on a case like this if there is any real risk of being wrong in either of the two basic facts. They are certainly not going to go to court if the facts are at all in question. If that were the case, some kind of settlement would be the normal course of action.
And they certainly are not going to file a criminal case if the facts are at all in question. Criminal cases for tax matters are quite rare. They are almost always civil matters, with the penalties being strictly the transfer of money to resolve the issue.
The other thing to point out from professional experience is that this kind of tax evasion happens all of the time. The dollars involved are, in the big picture, penny ante kind of stuff. I’ve personally seen plenty of it. A new car for the business owner buried in cost of goods sold. Vacations written off as business travel. College tuition buried in continuing education. God only knows how many family dinners are buried on businesses as meals and entertainment (which should be wining and dining with clients or meals while traveling away from home).
In most cases, both the business owner and the tax preparer generally know what is going on. And there’s an understanding that if you get caught, you fess up, mutter something about a bookkeeping error, and pay the taxes (along with some penalties and interest) without complaint. Then count your good fortune that you’re only getting caught for 2 or 3 years for something that has gone on for 10 or 20 years.
There’s also a bit of counseling from tax preparer to client. It’s generally along the lines of “pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered.” Boiled down, the advice is to keep the cheating small. Don’t make it obvious. Don’t go bragging about it to everyone and their brother.
And if you’re in the public eye, don’t do it at all. The small financial gain isn’t worth the trouble it can cause. How many people got caught up in the nanny tax issues of a couple decades ago? And how many keep getting caught? For people in the public eye, Nixon had it right. It’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up.
–Peter
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It probably takes that long to select a foreperson, read a charge, vote on it, count the votes, complete the necessary paperwork, and move on to the next one.
–Peter
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A divergence here… and a question. I’ve seen tuition mentioned a couple times as if it’s somehow wrong to write it off, yet my employer paid for my graduate degree in a different field… and no one suggested that was wrong. In your referenced post, what is the distinction between a company paying tuition and it’s good versus a company paying tuition and it’s bad?
In other news, I’m not looking for a fight on this Trump topic. I feel too beaten up over other things to be interested in fighting. I’ve got three major “griefs” in my life right now and I just don’t want more drama. If you don’t like my opinion, fine. And I have no interest in anything more to do with it. Other than this tuition question.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
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There is a provision in tax law for certain college tuition, that allows that tuition to be deductible for the employer and not income to the employee. I don’t recall all of the gory details on that one, but I’m pretty sure that the tuition has to be for the employee and not an employee’s dependents, and that it has a dollar limit of something around $5000 per year.
If you choose to post opinions, they are free to be challenged. If you don’t want your opinions challenged, don’t post them. I’m not looking for a fight either. But in an open forum, I have the freedom to challenge any opinion I disagree with. If you don’t care to defend your opinions, that’s fine, too. But don’t blame me for challenging an opinion just because you don’t have the time or energy to defend it.
–Peter
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I think that is the primary point Rob. My employer paid for my tuition also but they never would have paid for kids or grand kids tuition.
Andy
Sorry guys.
I’ve been really struggling with a personal (non-financial-loss-related…lol) issue unlike any I’ve experienced before. I’ve seen the deaths of most of those close in my life, but this non-death situation has been hitting me hard for the last few months. I’m coping with it better over time, but sometimes the grief and sense of loss spills out and my emotions have been just too raw to respond well in my recent posts here. I apologize for any annoyance I’ve caused.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
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I’m sorry to hear you’re going through rough times. Those certainly can have an affect on you. I know the loss of my wife about a year ago has an affect on me from time to time. Sometimes all we can do is lean on our faith, our family, and our friends. All three have been a great comfort to me over the last year.
–Peter
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I’m sorry to hear of your loss, Peter. Sounds cliche but it’s meant.
Rob
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.
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