Current surge: second worst

PSU: So either we wear masks forever or we do a risk analysis and determine what is an acceptable risk. I’m at the point where the vaccines and treatments have reduced the risk level to a point where it is okay to now not wear a mask.

Sure! And I am happy to go without mask quite often. And, like goofyhoofy, I am always ready to mask up and frequently do. Long covid adds formidable risk that cultural traditions are incompetent to understand and utterly understate.

I don’t go for the argument of “do it for the children” since those same people were not mask wearing before Covid where 30,000 or more people died of flu every year. Back then, thousand of flu deaths were not enough reason to require masks. Now that the Covid vaccine is available for children 6 months or older, that argument is further reduced.

I do it “for the children” so as to set an example for how to be an adult, exactly as I do with all manner of other civilities that are essential to humans living safely and happily together in large numbers in close proximity. The idea of Community as being of so great importance as to limit some forms of Individualism is critically important. Community is created by loyal allegiance to certain critical norms in the face of individual convenience and willfulness…

david fb

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As some are aware, I recently spent six months aboard a ship with a group of about 250, which was joined for the last couple of weeks by an additional 250 people.

Before we boarded, COVID (early January 2022) had run rampant and infected all of the ship’s entertainment staff as well as some of the passengers. All who boarded with us were fully vaccinated, PCR tested and mandated to wear masks aboard (KN95 were supplied by the ship and we brought our own supply as well). Almost everyone wore KN95 or N95 masks whenever in public and “social” distancing was enforced. All new crew were vaccinated/tested, then confined for five days and then tested again before joining the staff. COVID infections (in the wild) dropped to nearly zero.

The initial ports we stopped at either enforced masking, bubbles or whatever (or the population was largely masked) and COVID levels stayed close to nil for about two months.

Then the mask mandate aboard the ship was removed and shortly afterwards the distancing mandate and the new General Manager (essentially, the hotel manager) told me the problem was too much testing - they would have less cases if they didn’t test as often - about every two weeks).

Long story made short, by the time the cruise ended, about 75% of the passengers and crew had been infected and spent 5-10 days confined to their cabins. We remained masked with KN95 masks, didn’t eat/drink with others and were in the exception (didn’t catch the virus).

Being sequestered with this size group meant we could use it like a laboratory. Our trivia team of eight, at the beginning of the cruise, vowed to wear masks while together. After the mandate, they tended to eat and drink together. By the end of the cruise, the other six had contracted COVID and continued to wear masks while playing “for the protection of my wife and I”.

At duplicate bridge, only myself (my wife doesn’t play) and one couple who stayed masked weren’t infected (one of them, caught COVID at a birthday party for a bridge player about 20 days from the end of the cruise, presumably taking his mask off to drink or eat cake).

You could watch it spread between people who ate or drank together and so on.

OK, we had gotten second boosters about a month into the cruise (at a CVS during a stop at Miami) and also likely had a great deal of luck (one does have to take one’s mask off to eat - and we ate in the restaurants, not in our room, but despite being “social creatures” I changed all my reservations to eating alone). I also stopped playing bridge for a few weeks while COVID was spreading there.

I don’t enjoy wearing a mask any more than the next guy, but good ones seem to be giving valuable protection. We went to Midtown Manhattan yesterday and walked down Fifth Avenue noticing that exactly zero (other than us) people were masked along the crowded street (almost all were tourists). About 60% of the riders on buses and subways are still masked (frequently associated with demographics: Asians almost always, Russians, almost never, etc.).

Anyhow, we are all free to handle this as we wish, but our micro-experience confirms the macro-experience of the science.

Jeff

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Since Covid is never going away, the question back to you is when will it be acceptable to remove the masks?

When the risk is my own, not shared with others who have no input in the decision to unmask.

IP

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DrBob2 Suggesting that Australia and New Zealand mask mandate is responsible for their short 7d unusual peak compared to the long-term results is nonsence? Compare their overall results to the US.
Source Mortality Analysis – Johns Hopkins Cronavirus Resource Center.

Covid deaths per 100K pop by country
US 312
New Zealand 38
Australia 43

RAM

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1. DesertDave,

With the greatest respect let me say that our facts regarding the size of the virus are correct but your conclusion is dead wrong.

OK, methinks y’all know more about these things than I do.

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inparadise

When the risk is my own, not shared with others who have no input in the decision to unmask.

Yes, and I agree, but I am alarmed by how many people have a very very narrow and even distorted view of how much and often and through what complicated channels risk is shared with neither intent nor knowledge, and how crucial communal solidarity is to the survival of each and of all.

Not for nothing did many of the originating states of the United States of America call themselves “Commonwealths” (Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia). And as Franklin bluntly stated “We Must All Hang Together, or Most Assuredly, We Will All Hang Separately.”

The larger common good is now so large and long term in its process that individualism easily becomez a dangerously beguiling form of escapism.

david fb

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DrBob2 Suggesting that Australia and New Zealand mask mandate is responsible for their short 7d unusual peak compared to the long-term results is nonsence?

Mandates are only loosely related to the death rates as shown, perhaps because of the way they are/aren’t followed. We’ve all seen poor masking habits, and I’ve sat in restaurants where you had to wear a mask to get it but then spend an hour not far away from others, all unmasked.

DB2

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Any idea what percentage of masks being used are N95 or KN95? I have no idea what mine are.

Are you asking how to tell whether yours are N95 versus KN95? It’s typically stamped on the mask and/or the box they came in. Official N95 masks (the OSHA standard) must have head loops (not ear loops). KN95 masks (the S. Korean standard) typically have ear loops.

I’ve come to prefer the N95 with head loops: more comfortable for wearing for an extended period of time (e.g., a long flight) and generally seal better on my face, which provides better protection and also eliminates the foggy glasses problem for me.

I almost never wear a mask outdoors, although I would (and do) if I were in a crowd for an extended period of time, as when waiting for a bus with 50 other people at CDG last month (no trains that day!). Conversely, I almost always wear a mask in indoor public settings, unless they’re virtually empty. I avoid crowded places unless it’s unavoidable, but that’s nothing new for me.

DW and I caught Covid about a 8 weeks ago after removing our masks for perhaps 15 minutes to eat during a long flight home. I think our double-boosted vax status helped to keep us from becoming seriously ill (we’re in our 70s), but I was about as sick as I’ve ever been, and bedridden for a week. We’re fine now (and I’m back to jogging 8 to 10 miles 3X/week), but this is no “flu” to be regarded lightly.

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"Any idea what percentage of masks being used are N95 or KN95? I have no idea what mine are.

The Captain"

Captain,

Both KN95s and N95s should have the designation printed on the outside of the mask, along with a couple of other distinctive markings like “NIOSH”. N95 have loops that go around the head, while KN95s typically attach by ear loops. There are likely more counterfeit KN95s than N95s in the U.S., but I believe there are reasonable ways to verify their legitimacy. Determining whether an N95 is legitimate is described here:

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2021-124/pdfs/2021-124.pdf

I’m pretty sure that simple blue surgical masks are also made using the same static electricity process. Although they form a weak seal around the face, they still do a pretty good job of blocking virus inhalation.

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When the risk is my own, not shared with others who have no input in the decision to unmask.

Yes, and I agree, but I am alarmed by how many people have a very very narrow and even distorted view of how much and often and through what complicated channels risk is shared with neither intent nor knowledge, and how crucial communal solidarity is to the survival of each and of all.

Or simply don’t care. Even my beloved sister is acting like a complete jerk, choosing to ignore the need to quarantine and traveling by air when so sick with Covid that she passed out at airport security. When I asked with shock if she knowingly traveled while ill, she confidently replied that she wore her mask and if others were concerned about getting sick, they should wear theirs too.

We usually invite her when we vacation, as there is typically plenty of room in our vacation rental. This next trip is in her state but no invitation is being extended. We have our dog to protect and I no longer trust her judgement. I take no one’s judgement for granted anymore.

IP,
whose dog isn’t likely to survive another bout of Covid, and if he does we are not likely to survive another bout of dog’s long Covid, still catching up on missed sleep for the last 18 month stretch where we were on call every 2-3 hours to take him out for the prednisone induced pee

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Long story made short, by the time the cruise ended, about 75% of the passengers and crew had been infected and spent 5-10 days confined to their cabins. We remained masked with KN95 masks, didn’t eat/drink with others and were in the exception (didn’t catch the virus).

I think there is a key point missing here.
Catching it or not is dependent on more than ONLY wearing a mask or not.
On the cruise you were with others, in close proximity for extended periods of time.

The mistake is being with others for more than a few minutes – without a mask (on you and them)

Mike

I just checked, mine (the latest), bought in a supermarket, are FFP2 with ear loops.

Comparison of FFP2, KN95, and N95 Filtering Facepiece Respirator Classes

Description
Filtering facepiece respirators (FFR), which are sometimes called disposable respirators, are subject to various regulatory standards around the world. These standards specify certain required physical properties and performance characteristics in order for respirators to claim compliance with the particular standard. During pandemic or emergency situations, health authorities often reference these standards when making respirator recommendations, stating, for example, that certain populations should use an “N95, FFP2, or similar” respirator.

This document is only intended to help clarify some key similarities between such references, specifically to the following FFR performance standards:
• N95 (United States NIOSH-42CFR84)
• FFP2 (Europe EN 149-2001)
• KN95 (China GB2626-2006)
• P2 (Australia/New Zealand AS/NZA 1716:2012)
• Korea 1st class (Korea KMOEL - 2017-64)
• DS2 (Japan JMHLW-Notification 214, 2018)
• PFF2 (ABNT/NBR 13.698-2011 – Brazil)

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2…

But you still don’t know what others are wearing!

The Captain

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Germs are so small it takes a microscope to see them.

Viruses are so small it takes an electron microscope to see them.

Any mask that would protect you on those levels would suffocate you.

Your mask prevents your coughs & sneezes from contaminating the air others breath.

I’ve read ahead a bit in the thread and see that others are attempting to treat this foolishness with respect. I’m going to take a slightly different tack.

There are two aspects to respect.

There is the respect that is innate, that humans should have for each other simply because we are fellow humans. It’s similar to the respect many have for things like the beauty of nature and the wonders we see and find there.

The other aspect of respect is a respect which is earned. We can have respect for the athlete or the musician or the mechanic or the scientist or the philanthropist who has spent countless hours honing their skills and their craft so that they can now employ those skills at a high level.

I will have respect for you as a fellow human, but I have no respect at all for the nonsense you have written there. You have not earned that respect.

It is a nonsense that comes from ignorance - from knowing a little, but failing to realize that there is much more that you need to know before you can draw reasonable conclusions.

Yes, bacteria and viruses are extremely small. And you also seem to understand that these bacteria and viruses are not expelled on their own. They ride along on small water droplets that are expelled when we breathe out. Those droplets are orders of magnitude larger than the bacteria or viruses hitching a ride. That is part of the reason one might wear a mask - to reduce the numbers of water droplets expelled while breathing or, more importantly, talking.

But the other side - the side you don’t seem to grasp - is that infection is transmitted when you breathe in these water droplets laden with a bacteria or virus. And those droplets - while also small - are plenty large enough to get caught in even a simple cloth mask. Surgical masks will be better at filtering out these small droplets, and N95 better yet.

The bottom line is that masks serve a dual purpose. They protect both the wearer and those around them.

–Peter

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I think of you and dd in the same way I think of smokers. Good people likely to suffer the consequences of making a dumb decision.

The statistics of concern for me is the current death rate. While over a million died in this country, that is in the past. What is important to me when evaluating risk is the what is happening now, not last year or since the beginning.

Weekly death rate for fully vaccinated plus booster is 0.12 per 100,000 people. (April 30)
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/united-states-rates-of-co…

In 2021, the fatality rate for motor vehicles was 13.89 per 100,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in…

If we annualize the current weekly death rate per 100,000 for Covid, we’ll get around 6 per 100,000.

It seems the dumb decision is that I drive my vehicle every day. The numbers in the first link show just how much the unvaccinated inflate the overall death rates.

PSU

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mostly I evade proximity to idiots, fools, and excellent decent folk who have bought into convenient notions such as [redacted’s] silliness about masks.

As someone has noted, this is good enough to be worth repeating.

–Peter

There are likely more counterfeit KN95s than N95s in the U.S.

I switched to KF95s for this reason. Supposedly, a KF95 made in Korea is very likely genuine. I also like the way they fold into the pocket better.

“6.3 million have died worldwide.”

What percentage of those were vaccinated and boosted?

I’m sorry the Pandemic Board was closed, as it would be a good place to discuss all this, but it was, so it isn’t. I guess, given that the pandemic has had some of the largest macroeconomic effects on the world in the past decade that this is as good a place as any.

What percentage of those were vaccinated and boosted?

It’s a fair question. The death rate has declined markedly, it’s true. That’s because the rate of vaccinations (and prior infections) has increased so dramatically over the past 18 months, so even when people catch the disease they tend to have a milder case. (See: news headlines today about POTUS).

What many people don’t realize is that the (new variant of) the disease is actually spreading incredibly fast:

**It may surprise you to learn, given the pandemic mood of the country and indeed the world, that probably half of all Covid infections have happened this calendar year — and it’s only July. By December, the figure could be 80 percent or more. The gap between cases and severe outcomes is bigger than it has ever been, with the fraction of infections ending in deaths one-tenth that of the pandemic’s early stages. But simply in terms of infection, this year towers over each of the previous two.**
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/opinion/covid-19-deaths-v…

There’s a new variant - or sub variant about every six weeks (!) but even as infection rates increase, the death rate decreases. At this point, according to one report I saw, more than half the country has had Covid in one form or another. And, of course, a significant portion has been vaccinated, with a smaller portion boosted, or boosted twice. One virologist quoted in the article says that we might be near 98% with some form of immunity - which doesn’t mean you won’t get it, but it does mean that most of those who do will be able to resist the worst effects.

His prediction: each year about half the country will become infected, and about 100,000 will die from it. Risk increases with age and other factors, as before. One of the risks: standing around in a closed area with someone who has it, particular if that person is talking, singing, or yelling.

Have a mask handy. Use it when appropriate. Go on with your life, but don’t be an idiot about it. It’s not that hard, really.

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NE,

The more normalized prior to mask rate of flu mortality was between 30k and 50k per year. Looking back around the 2010 years.

The current 436 Covid deaths per dya x 365 days is roughly 160k deaths. It is about 4x as many deaths.

But this is the worst part. Read the NYTs for the chart on deaths for people over 65 v under. Because people are unmasking seniors have had a much higher death rate with Omicron. That though was back in February. NOW the death rate due to Omicron among seniors is much much lower.

Too many of you are driving in the rear view mirror. I am not at all trying to persuade you to alter your behavior or change your risk profiles I am saying the data is a moving target.

Viruses do not want to, as if with thought, the host. Killing the host stops them from spreading. They need to live to propagate.

I do not know much about BA.5. I have seen mention it is riskier.

Well this discussion has flipped my decision on one thing.

I will be wearing one of my KN95 masks in the air to Ireland and back.

I wish airline propaganda was worth something. Probably not at all.

I will bring some paper or fiber cheapies with me otherwise.