Forced conscription in Donbas

This is why Russians are not doing well on the battle ground.

Ukrainians forced to fight for Russia do not make good soldiers!

Ukrainian woman takes on officials dragging her husband to join pro-Russian fighters …

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/20/pro-russian-se…

Pro-Russia separatist forces have stepped up the forced conscription of men – including Ukrainian passport holders – in occupied areas of the Donbas region, amid mounting evidence of the scale of losses on the Russian side.

According to credible evidence from the region, forced conscription – already a feature of the Russian-backed separatists’ rule before the Kremlin’s invasion on 24 February – appeared to have picked up again in June, with checkpoints and patrols, some reportedly involving Chechen fighters allied to the Kremlin, on the lookout for men to recruit.

The renewed evidence of forced conscription comes amid well-documented issues of Russian losses in the war, and as the Kremlin has begun raising new volunteer battalions across Russia offering sign-up bonuses and recruiting in prisons.

While Ukrainian estimates put the number of Russians killed since the war began at 38,000, western analysts suggest a figure roughly a third lower, with the UK defence officials recently suggesting a figure of about 50,000 killed and injured since February.

Jaak

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Yes, men forced to fight generally do not make good soldiers. Americans learned that during the Vietnam War & US Civil War.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/15/ukraine-war-conscriptio…
On July 5, Ukrainian army generals issued a proclamation dramatically expanding the martial law prohibiting Ukrainian civilian men’s freedom of movement, calling on all those “liable for military service” to remain in their home districts. With the Twitter hashtag #UkraineLetMenOut, citizens had already been complaining bitterly about men being unable to leave the country with their families since Russia’s invasion. After the new proclamation came down, one Ukrainian tweeted, “Now we can’t even leave our cities without permission from military recruitment centers.” Another tweeted, “Animals have more rights in Ukraine than men.”

Yes, men forced to fight generally do not make good soldiers. Americans learned that during the Vietnam War & US Civil War.

And the results of the universal draft during WW2?

DB2

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Forced drafting is always upsetting and diecy (e.g. see Civil War NYC draft riots), but becomes unsustainable if the war seems pointless hopeless etc… On that score Ukraine and Russia are extremely asymmetric.

david fb

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Yes, men forced to fight generally do not make good soldiers. Americans learned that during the Vietnam War & US Civil War.

And the results of the universal draft during WW2?

Tru dat! WWII was a popular war. The draft just made sure “Jody” didn’t have an unfair advantage with the girls.

Meet Jody. Jody decided to shirk his patriotic duty and stay home while you chose to serve your country. Jody is lying in wait, plotting to steal your girl when you’re away. It’s easy: Jody will swoop in, console her when she’s lonely, then slowly fill your boots simply because he’s there and you’re not. He’s the original “Mr. Steal Your Girl,” and he is every soldier’s worst nightmare
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-life/brief-history-jody-…

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Yes, men forced to fight generally do not make good soldiers.

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I think Ukrainians conscripts fighting Russian soldiers who are invading Ukraine (killing, raping, destroying homes/towns, and torturing Ukrainians) motivates them much more than Russian conscripts of Russians and Ukrainians who do not even have a dog in the fight.

Jaak

Forced drafting is always upsetting and diecy (e.g. see Civil War NYC draft riots), but becomes unsustainable if the war seems pointless hopeless etc.

In addition to being a long drawn out war, there were other factors in the NYC riots during the Civil War, namely racism (blacks were attacked by the white mob) and wealth (middle class folks couldn’t afford to buy their way out of the draft like the wealthy could).

As for WWII, we were attacked by another country. Never underestimate the ‘rally round the flag’ emotion. Even George Bush had over 90% approval in the wake of 9-11.

AW

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david fb: Forced drafting is always upsetting and diecy (e.g. see Civil War NYC draft riots), but becomes unsustainable if the war seems pointless hopeless etc… On that score Ukraine and Russia are extremely asymmetric.

Many nations used the draft during the Cold War to maintain the numbers required for defense. After the Wall came down as part of the “Peace Dividend” they reduced the length of time draftees were required to serve. West Germany also had the “Professionals” who served full careers, the quality differential was noticeable. After a couple of reductions in time the short stint remaining for the draftees was not long enough to produce “useful” troops and they went to an all professional (much smaller) military.

I have no idea what the current status is as military service was very political.

Ah, answered my own question. One of my German friends (Imhoff) was a ‘Professional’ working in Software and a total football nut until he watched a couple of hockey games on TV in the Chiefs office. We arranged for him to go to a live game of old furt Canadians playing against some young German players in Aachen … it was a total slaughter with the Germans giving up when they were behind 11 - 1.

Tim

https://armedforces.eu/Germany

Military branches
(Bundeswehr) Army (Heer), Navy (Deutsche Marine, includes naval air arm), Air Force (Luftwaffe), Joint Support Services (Streitkraeftebasis, SKB), Central Medical Service (Zentraler Sanitaetsdienst, ZsanDstBw).

Military service
17-23 years of age for male and female voluntary military service; conscription ended 1 July 2011; service obligation 8-23 months or 12 years; women have been eligible for voluntary service in all military branches and positions since 2001.

Timothy Synder has a new, interesting Twitter thread out about Putin’s hold on Russia. Starts …

Putin’s rule is weakening. 0/

We now regularly hear now from people aside from Putin (for example former prime minister and president Dmitri Medvedev) about the meaning of the war, the catastrophic consequences that await Ukraine and the West, and so forth. This is a sign that Putin is losing control. 1/

https://twitter.com/TimothyDSnyder/status/155088461153377075…