OT: D3 + fish oil may reduce autoimmune risk

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/27/health/vitamin-d-fish-oil-aut…

5-yr study now at 7 yrs and ongoing.

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Unfortunately, this story understates the need for Vitamin D and overstates the risk of an overdose. The US RDA of 600 to 800 IUs per day is a joke. 2000 to 4000 IUs is quite safe. For some people, even 4000 IUs per day isn’t enough. (Getting tested is a good idea.) Cases of Vitamin D overdose are rare and involve tens of thousands of IUs per day for months or years.

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Unfortunately, this story understates the need for Vitamin D and overstates the risk of an overdose. The US RDA of 600 to 800 IUs per day is a joke. 2000 to 4000 IUs is quite safe.

Several years ago our daughter was diagnosed as being deficient in vitamin D, and recommended we get tested too. So we did.

The pills we were prescribed were 50,000 units. That’s the US RDA for 83 days - just a bit shy of three months. PER PILL.

I was told to take them twice a week for a month.

My lady, three times a week.

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Growing up in Northern Europe with limited sunshine in the winter, it was standard practice to give children a table spoon of cod liver oil everyday. As a reward we were given a small piece of candy after swallowing the oil. We were told that Vitamin D is necessary for strong bones and muscles.

Without Vitamin D, our bodies cannot effectively absorb calcium, which is essential to good bone health. Children who lack Vitamin D develop a condition called rickets, which causes bone weakness, bowed legs, and other skeletal deformities, such as stooped posture.

When we arrived in California I did not need to take cod liver oil any longer because of the abundant sunshine. Also my family always ate lots of fish.

Now that I am in my 70s, I have been taking Vitamin D supplements to make up for less time in the sun.

It is good to know about the benefits of Vitamin D for older people.

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I had a steep learning curve with regard to my chronically low Vitamin D. Supplementation alone did not work.

Only after I had significantly reduced my alcohol consumption and consistently took my gel tabs with a meal containing an appropriate amount of fat did I manage to significantly raise the level of Vitamin D in my blood.

My omega 3’a presently come from eating 3 tins of salmon, kippers or sardines per week instead of pills. I had read studies suggesting that actual fish consumption had a stronger correlation with heart health than pills. This is the first serious study I have seen addressing autoimmune disease and Vitamin D.

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The problem with vit D is going over 4000 or 5000 IU per day can lead to a greater incidence of broken bones.

But taking vit D under IU 4000 or equal to that can be extremely beneficial.

Moderation or nothing in all things.

Concerning Omega 3, there have been plenty of tests done that show you need to eat fish or something to get the benefits of Omega 3. Just taking a supplement is not really worth it. You can improve your numbers by taking a supplement and still get no benefit even with better blood numbers.

I buy a side of salmon every Friday morning. Broil it and enjoy it during the week.

A good friend who is a purist rolls his eyes at my farm raised salmon. LOL…no one is perfect.

When we arrived in California I did not need to take cod liver oil any longer because of the abundant sunshine.

Time spent in the sun is no guarantee of vitamin D in your body. Get tested as part of your annual blood panel tests. We were very surprised to see DH’s D levels given how much we are outside.

FWIW,

IP

and consistently took my gel tabs with a meal containing an appropriate amount of fat…

Good reminder that taking fat soluble vitamins with dietary fat is critical.

Consuming some dietary fat should help you to absorb vitamins A, D, E and K, which are fat-soluble. LiveStrong.com recommends adding a few nuts to a salad, some avocado to a sandwich or a teaspoon of olive oil to soup. However, it cautions you to add only plant fats and not to overdo it.
Adding vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to your meal – through a squirt of lime or lemon juice to beans or spinach – should help you absorb iron.

https://baycare.org/services/primary-care/vitamins-what-can-…

There are many things that will help your body absorb supplements. For example, vitamin C helps with absorption of iron, but calcium impedes absorption.

Do not take iron supplements and antacids or calcium supplements at the same time. It is best to space doses of these 2 products 1 to 2 hours apart, to get the full benefit from each medicine or dietary supplement.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/iron-supplement….

And if you are getting Calcium either from your diet or supplements, and you should, don’t forget your vitamin K2, which has a role in transporting the calcium out of the bloodstream and into your bones, minimizing calcification of the arteries: It contributes to skin health and bone metabolism, promotes proper brain function and prevents heart-related diseases. Furthermore, vitamin K2 is important in the body’s use of calcium to help build bones and to inhibit blood vessel calcification. Vitamin K2 is found in animal foods and preserved foods.

https://www.news-medical.net/health/Vitamin-K2-Physiological….

IP,
whose road to becoming a Chemist started with an interest in nutrition

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The problem with vit D is going over 4000 or 5000 IU per day can lead to a greater incidence of broken bones.

Link please.

IP

…vit D…going over 4000 or 5000 IU per day can lead to a greater incidence of broken bones.

And here I thought it was the opposite: that higher doses were associated with bone health and bone healing.

Yes, a link to that study would be most helpful!

Pete

IP,

It is very well known that vit D in quantities over 4000 IU can lead to broken bones.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/too-much-vita…

These studies have existed for over two decades.

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It is very well known that vit D in quantities over 4000 IU can lead to broken bones.

From your link:

Researchers gave more than 300 healthy adults daily doses of 400 international units (IU), 4,000 IU, or 10,000 IU of supplemental vitamin D. All participants underwent bone mineral density tests, which are designed to assess bone health, when the study began and after they'd been taking the supplements for three years.

...

"Compared to just a modest dose of 400 IU a day, the study found no improvement in bone density at the higher doses and even a suggestion that there might be some harm by reducing bone density," says Dr. Manson.

So they tested at 400 IU, 4,000 IU, and 10,000 IU. Not anything in between, and yet you maintain that “It is very well known that vit D in quantities over 4000 IU can lead to broken bones.” Really? What about 5,000 IUs or any other amount between 4,000 to 10,000 IUs? There are no details as to what is meant by “a suggestion that there might be some harm by reducing bone density.” I am a research chemist and to use the words “suggestion” and “might” indicates their data was inconclusive on this. Furthermore, there are things beyond the consumption of vitamin D that can impact your bone density. Weight bearing exercise is one such thing. Were there controls in place regarding the physical activity or lack thereof of these participants? It would be very conceivable for people receiving the same supplementation yet exercising differently to have bone density that differed from each other. And how about dietary controls? Those consuming enough K2 either via diet or supplements would likely have stronger bones than those who did not get enough. K2 is critical to get calcium to the bones and out of the soft tissue. Vitamin D does not improve bone density all on it’s own. If there were no controls for diet and exercise, the study tells you very little.

I could go on, but will keep it simple.

That said, I don’t suggest people take amounts of more than 2,000 IUs without talking to your physician, particularly if you are taking meds. Fat soluble supplements in particular have a need for caution.

IP,
who much prefers the actual study to a fluff piece like the above, so that study design can be evaluated for it’s ability to properly answer the question posed in the hypothesis

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The US RDA of 600 to 800 IUs per day is a joke. 2000 to 4000 IUs is quite safe. For some people, even 4000 IUs per day isn’t enough. (Getting tested is a good idea.)

One interesting risk factor that came out during COVID that got little attention, was vitamin D deficiency. I eat a relatively balanced diet so I thought no way I’d be deficient by my internist thought it was a good idea. Wrong. Right below the low end of normal. Started a supplement at 5000 every other day, retested a couple months later, still low, upped to 5000 a day, retested and in the middle of the range.

JLC

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IP,
who much prefers the actual study to a fluff piece like the above, so that study design can be evaluated for it’s ability to properly answer the question posed in the hypothesis

That is great IP. But since you had no clue about this, I suggest you do your own googling from here if you want to know. I am not here to please you by googling studies.

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I am not here to please you by googling studies.

You are the one who made statements that don’t seem to be backed up by actual facts. If you can’t provide decent links, don’t make the statements. The link you provided was full of holes. I looked to try to fact check your statements and could not find anything credible to back them up, which is why I asked… though that should be your job to provide them, not mine. Simply saying “Everyone knows…,” really isn’t enough.

IP

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If you can’t provide decent links, don’t make the statements.

Go pound sand. You do not dictate to anyone else how to post.

You spend have the day on here. If you need a fact do not be lazy look it up.

It is reality that at higher doses incidences of broken bones increases. If you do not know this who cares?

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I looked to try to fact check your statements and could not find anything credible to back them up, which is why I asked… though that should be your job to provide them, not mine. Simply saying “Everyone knows…,” really isn’t enough.

IP,

I was peaved to be told what I could or could not post according to you. But then reading on I see you can not do a simple google search. So I will do it for you. I will do it with an URL shortener if need be in a second post, just see if this works. You are misquoting me and to put it in your words do not put words in my mouth. You are not everyone.

https://www.google.com/search?q=incidence+of+broken+bones+at…

IP,

Part of the problem you and Google are having in all fairness is there is more of a paywall for such journaled information.

The higher bone loss starts below 4000 IU and gets worse as the dosages increases. The loss is actually mineral content. That leads to broken bones.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2748796#:~….

Instead of the hypothesized increase, a negative dose-response relationship was observed for volumetric BMD. Using the 400-IU group as a reference point, high-dose vitamin D supplementation (10?000 IU/d) was associated with a significantly greater loss of bone. Because these results are in the opposite direction of the research hypothesis, this evidence of high-dose vitamin D having a negative effect on bone should be regarded as hypothesis generating, requiring confirmation with further research. Therefore, the appropriate interpretation of this study is that for maintenance of bone quality in healthy vitamin D–sufficient adults, these results do not support a skeletal benefit of vitamin D doses well above the recommended dietary allowance.6

Which of you two will let it go and give the other one the last word?

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