OT: IDF evidence so far falls well short of al-Shifa hospital being Hamas HQ

Looking at the pictures of the small tunnel under the hospital makes me laugh. This is not the command and control center of Hamas.

The AK-47s and hand grenades spread out on the ground do not represent anywhere near enough information of a Hamas command and control center with munitions.

Here is what Guardian reports:
Prior to their capture of Dar al-Shifa hospital, the Israel Defense Forces went to great lengths to depict the medical complex as a headquarters for Hamas, from where its attacks on Israel were planned.

The evidence produced so far falls well short of that. IDF videos have shown only modest collections of small arms, mostly assault rifles, recovered from the extensive medical complex.

That suggests an armed presence, but not the sort of elaborate nerve centre depicted in animated graphics presented to the media before al-Shifa was seized, portraying a network of well-equipped subterranean chambers.

Even the videos produced so far have raised questions under scrutiny. A BBC analysis found the footage of an IDF spokesperson showing the apparent discovery of a bag containing a gun behind an MRI scanning machine, had been taped hours before the arrival of the journalists to whom he was supposedly showing it.

“Israel has failed to provide anywhere even close to the level of evidence required to justify the narrow exception under which hospitals can be targeted under the laws of war,” said Mai El-Sadany, a human rights lawyer and the executive director of the Tahrir Institute for Middle East Policy, in Washington.

“In the rare case that protection is lifted, Israel would have to provide civilians with a meaningful chance to evacuate and even still, any civilians who remain in the hospital following an evacuation order would still be protected by the rules of proportionality,” El-Sadany added. “At every stage of this legal assessment, Israel has fallen abysmally short. It has provided photo and video footage that is far from commensurate with its initial claims.”

At some point, these issues could be submitted to formal judgment. Israel does not recognise the international criminal court, but the court recognises Palestine as a member, and has been conducting an investigation into possible war crimes and crimes against humanity in the occupied Palestinian territories since 2021.

The Biden administration has not only defended Israel’s operations but presented independent claims based on its own intelligence about the hospital. John Kirby, the White House national security spokesperson, framed the alleged Hamas facility there as a command “node” rather than a centre, and a possible weapons store.

The absence of evidence so far, is beginning to recall past US intelligence failures, most dramatically those preceding the Iraq invasion. It further isolates Washington on the world stage, and deepens already significant rifts within the administration itself.


I believe it should be investigated but why would you have armed combatants in the hospital? Especially when the other side is accusing you of using hospital’s for cover. Lets have a thorough investigation and in the meantime. Tell Hamas to give up the hostages.



How deep below ground are the tunnels that were found? We have seen the photos from Hamas. Do they match? Remember:

Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia.

I saw that video clip. The BBC reporters routinely note that they cannot independently verify the video they are handed by the IDF, and they only see what the IDF allows them to see.

I remember a truck found in Iraq that was claimed to be a “mobile bio-weapons lab”, just as the US regime had claimed. Some time later, the report was corrected, that the equipment in the truck appeared to be for inflating weather balloons.

The numbers of weapons displayed are small enough to have been “staged”, as are the handful of old 3 1/2" mechanical hard drives shown.

The truth will come out, eventually. At this point in 2003, the USian mob was pretty thoroughly taken in.

Meanwhile, report on the wire today that the hospital has been evacuated of everyone except a skeleton staff.


I was thinking about this same incident. US government will go to any lengths to gin up false information when needed to bolster their lies.

Equipment was found according to the Israelis. We are talking laptops and communications equipment.

Were you expecting a standing army?

If you go on an aircraft carrier with over 3000 personnel only a handful of officers on are in command. You do not have all three thousand up in the tower.

What are you trying to say? That there should have been 3000 militants on the scene in command?

What was in the tunnels? Well, they are there. Who knows what is in an empty tunnel?

Meanwhile communications equipment and laptops…that is all you get…but there are records on those laptops.

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After weeks of advance notice, no. However, I thought they might find a sign reminding fighters to carefully fill out their RPG requisition forms. :slightly_smiling_face:



It’s not “a tunnel”. So far it’s a hole with a staircase.

But I suspect any day they will discover the Weapons of Mass Destruction we were looking for 20 years ago.


You are doing it again. Anything for a laugh. Give that man a hit of the like button.

Seriously it was the communications gear that mattered. That is why it was a headquarters.


“The U.S. Intelligence Community is confident in its judgment on this topic and has independently corroborated information on HAMAS and PIJ’s use of the hospital complex for a variety of purposes related to its campaign against Israel,” the assessment states. It continues that it believes the groups “used the al-Shifa hospital complex and sites beneath it to house command infrastructure, exercise certain command and control activities, store some weapons, and hold at least a few hostages.”



If Hamas does not like war now then they can demand peace by surrendering. That is a full-on option after starting a war to surrender.

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This does not mean that Hamas is neutralized because they have captured the al-Shifa hospital complex. It is not significant.

True. This is looking backward at the doubters who said the hospital wasn’t being used by Hamas for war purposes.



From the items I see on the wire this morning, surrender may not satisfy the Israeli government, as it seems to be pushing for ethnic cleansing.


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as it seems to be pushing for terrorist cleansing.

There! Fixed it for you!

( who notes that Hamas is a terrorist group)


Well, if they were only killing terrorists that might be true. They’re not. They’re sweeping out entire sections and using indiscriminate bombing of whole sections of cities, so clearly the targeting is, shall we say, less than precise.

That said, I find it hard to blame them given the “provocation”, if that is a strong enough word, which it is not. And with the continuing litany of horribles as reported by the Israeli government and the media, I’m not surprised that they are following this path. I just wonder if they aren’t creating more terrorists than they are killing.

Still, I have no idea what I would do differently, so mostly I stay out of it and am grateful that I do not live anywhere close to there, nor have acquaintances of any kind involved.


Hi Goofy,

There is a big difference between targeting civilians and targeting Hamas hiding behind civilians.

Please note that millions of civilians were killed in WWII by the allies due to less than precise targeting yet it is considered a “good/just” war.

When I hear people blaming Israel for this mess, a la “over-reacting”, I ask how they would feel if terrorists killed 40,000 US citizens on a single day (roughly the equivalent % of population that Israel lost), up close and personal-- as in killing women, children and men one at a time, often in the most horrible ways–and filming it…and then bragging about it!?

They either say that would be impossible, or they say they would go to total war.

I agree with this statement:

" Still I have no idea what I would do differently, so mostly I stay out of it and am grateful that I do not live anywhere close to there, nor have acquaintances of any kind involved."



Over 70% of the homes on Gaza are gone. By ethnic cleansing lets be clear. This means people leaving the area entirely. This does not mean killing anyone. The war is an excuse for the aftermath an exodus from Gaza. Yes that is true. The war is minor. Meaning both the Syrian Civil War, the Yemeni War, and Ukraine have been far worse.

The idea is emerging that Gaza won’t be inhabitable after this war. The benefit is no further war with Gaza later. Or we would repeat this endlessly.

The Palestinians had been getting around the wall and killing Israelis for years. The rockets had been coming out of Gaza for years.

This war is going to end all that. There is no reason for Israel not to boot them entirely out.

It was their land. This could have been entirely different.

Give Texas back to Mexico if you do not want to be a hypocrite. Only the Israelis have to have a higher ethic. Forget about it.

This war will stop a lot of crap for Israel.

The full force and faith of the US government is behind Israel because Israel is a democratic republic. The other talk of apartheid is lame when no one is really calling for peace on the other side. Instead the calls for a complete eradication of Israel by what? Greater Syrian forces backed by Moscow.

Is it all evil? Yes war always is on both sides. Make way for democratic republics the only partial excuse ever for war.


This is proof that that the hospital was not a major operations center. It was insignificant!

The Israelis have been attacking Gaza and killing 10 times as many Palestinians for years.

Jews did not want to negotiate with Palestinians after they lefts Gaza - They just wanted them gone from Gaza. Now Israelis are killing, torturing, starving, maiming innocent people to get rid of all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Israel is rapidly becoming a worse pariah state than Russia killing, torturing, starving, maiming more people in 3 months than Russia. The countries around the world are condemning Israel.