It is not the Palestinians who want to create trouble with anyone.
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For me, this short lucid WaPo column by brilliant writer historian Yuval Noah Harari
states the crucial fact about the Hamas Israel nightmare â what Hamasâ unearthly goal was and is, how it is that Hamas has already largely succeeded, and what opposing Hamas would actually look like in comparison to the blind deadly utterly predictable reflex response of Netanyahuâs Israel.
Long ago in a Junior High School drama competition my teacher picked me to play Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet saying âYou will eventually discover Mercutio to be your spiritual ancestor.â Damn right, and so now after decades of feeling my way into that part of Shakespeareâs briiliant insights, and recently speaking with both Palestinians and Israeliâs I love, I feel licensed to say
A PLAGUE oâ both your houses!
They have made wormsâ meat of me:
I have it,
And soundly too:
your [Xdke&^] houses!
david fb
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See my answers in the yesterdayâs posts!
Itâs Hamas that wants to wipe out the Jews, not most Palestinians. Hamas is a very small portion of those living in Gaza.
Iâm pretty sure the vast majority of Palestinians would prefer to live in peace with their Israeli neighbors. But a small group is wrecking things for everyone.
Hmmm ⌠I think Iâve heard that story somewhere else.
âPeter
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From what I see on line, some 78% of the residents of Gaza, are refugees and their descendants, dating back to 48. vs 30% of west bank residents. 55% of the refugee population of Gaza still live in refugee camps.
Are the Gaza Pals going to forget what was taken from them anytime soon?
Keep in mind, people in Florida, who are still fighting the Cuban civil war they lost over 60 years ago, dictate USian policy toward Cuba.
Steve
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This issue is taking Hamas and some of the other forces ie Islamic Jihad completely out of the picture. If that is not done is rinse and repeat a few weeks from now. If this is done the dozens of tribal security forces might take up being the government. That is fair to everyone. In the long run, it is better for everyone.
The point is there can not be a one way answer premised on Hamasâs endless war.
More unintelligible gobbledygook!
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You are not taken as very rational on this topic.
The Israelis are doing just that.
I will remind you the entire situation has been gobbledygook for a centuries. If you look at the warring in this world the human race is gobbledygook.
Itâs predictable, but not blind. Nor is Harari correct in claiming that Israel isnât working towards political goals. They are. Just not the ones that Harari wants them to pursue.
Israelâs goals are to completely eradicate Hamas as a terrorist and political institution. The purpose to prevent Hamas not only from attacking Israel again (a tactical objective), but to prevent them from being able to shape Palestinian politics in Gaza going forward (a political goal). If theyâre removed, thereâs room for an alternative political force to step into that vacuum. Whether itâs the PA, a new political faction that can accept a two-state solution, or even a group that shares Hamasâ leanings but lacks their experience and organization, Israel will be better off.
Israel is not pursuing the âfor once and for allâ chimera that Harari thinks they should aim for, and which Friedman warned was an impossibility. Thatâs a foolhardy pursuit even in normal times, but Hamas has killed any effort to resuscitate moving towards a long-term solution for at least a generation. Partly thatâs because Israel canât allow these atrocities to be the impetus towards a Palestinian state, else Hamas will control that new government completely (theyâd be the Founding Fathers, for goodness sake). There may be a time to pursue the goals Harari outlines - and thus to weigh the benefits of running higher security risks to ameliorate conditions in Gaza - but itâs not going to be in the immediate aftermath of the attacks.
And partly thatâs because Hamasâ attack has revealed, for good or ill, the size of the minority of global opinion (especially in Israelâs Western allies) regards a two-state solution as unacceptable. âFrom the river to the seaâ leaves nowhere for Israel to be. If Israel is still going to be regarded as an oppressor/settler/colonizer even under a two-state solution, then thereâs not as much political security benefit to working towards that long-term solution.
I only have a few relatives in Israel (all safe during the original attacks, though two are reservists that have been called up for service). Iâve spoken to two of them - both young progressives born and raised in Tel Aviv who are (or were) fervent supporters of a two-state solution and very much against Netanyahu and expanding settlements. Theyâre stunned, of course, at the scope and scale of the 10/7 attacks. Theyâre scared for what will happen to Israel, and theyâre scared for what will happen to the innocent people who live in Gaza. But they were also rather shocked to find out that so many American progressives appear to believe that they are settlers, too. That they have no place in a just and equitable peace in the region. That a two-state solution might not be anything more than an interim step in the de-colonization of the region, to the American left.
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Biden has put the breaks on an Israeli invasion. He wants the kidnapping victims given time for a rescue or release
This is good for Israel. This means being more surgical with Hamas at a distance. It is much less costly for all concerned. Much less costly for all concerned longer term as well. It gives the forces outside of Hamas a better chance of making a wider number of choices with Israel. Israel wonât force the people of Gaza into a longer-term response if there is no invasion.
Israel could have pursued Harariâs chimera and prevented this Hamas attack. Of course Israelis were to busy arguing which party rules Israel, changes in their Judicial powers, and protests galore for years.
How would that have prevented this Hamas attack? Israel making peace with the Palestinians is as threatening to Hamasâ goals as normalizing relations with Saudi. More threatening, even.
Hamas doesnât exist to create a second Palestinian state. It exists to destroy Israel - to remove the occupiers from the region. Hamas is a terror organization of religious extremists - their goal is to get rid of all the Jews (and other non-Muslims), whether killed or driven out. Stopping the West Bank settlements and lifting the longstanding Gaza blockade wouldnât have affected their willingness to engage in these atrocities (though loosening the blockade might have affected their capabilities).
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You lost any credibility with such a statement. No one can take you seriously when you post such nonsense.
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That has happened repeatedly in this discussion.
It is NOT a statement! It is a question!
But you are not providing any intelligent response to the question - only name calling.
Since you complained about not getting an answer, Israelâs earlier reports were that several hundred Hamas fighters had been killed in Gaza during the earliest days of the offensive. Neither Israel nor Hamas have provided any more recent figures. Your intimation that the number might be as low as â2 or 3â is pretty absurd (despite phrasing it in the form of a question, youâre clearly suggesting that might be a plausible number).
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Can you point to the name I called you?
I was going to link to some number but I see Albaby beat me to it.
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These are unverified Israeli reports. We need to hold Israeli claims to the same verification as Hamas claims.
Here is the quote you posted from the AP article:
âHundreds of Hamas militants were buried under rubble of buildings destroyed by Israel in the past 48 hours, according to Israeli Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari. His claims could not be confirmed.â
Of course. Though Hamas hasnât made any claims about how many of its fighters have been killed, so thatâs really all thatâs out there.
Even absent that, though, you know full well that â2 or 3â is an absurd number. Your posts indicate that youâre well aware that slightly more than 1% of the population of Gaza is part of Hamas (30,000 members out of around 2.3-2.4 million). So if 4,000 people have been killed in Gaza, even if they were totally at random that would mean 40 or 50 Hamas members would be among those killed. Even the slightest effectiveness at trying to go after Hamas, instead of just attacking blindly at random, would result in more Hamas members dead than even that. Which is why your suggestion that the number might be as low as 2 or 3 is ridiculous.
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Maybe Hamas would not have been established if Israelis were more egalitarian - not stealing Palestinian lands and building settlements, not building walls, working earnestly toward a 2 state solution, not treating Arabs as second class people, treating Arabs with dignity in negotiations and other interactions, not having so much trouble at religious sites.
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