I put out the 2 or 3 based on indiscriminate bombing of Gaza and as bait to have someone logically look at the issue of bombing as an ineffective way of destroying Hamas. You finally took the bait and made some reasonable points.
But I still maintain that bombing does not accomplish the task of destroying Hamas without also causing massive civilian casualties. The Nazis were not defeated by the bombing of Germany. The Nazis were defeated by the Russian, US and UK armies on the ground.
Hamas and the Palestinians are not Nazis. There is no reason to defeat them.
The issue is allowing the tribesmen to rule Gaza. A weakened Hamas may end up being supplanted. Depends on the tribes deciding to rule themselves. That is not too far-fetched to ask the actual leaders to run the show.
The West Bank has different power-sharing arrangements between Israel and the tribes there.
In time that approach would probably create to nations without war. One group of tribes on the Gaza and at least one group of tribes on the West Bank.
Believe it or not the actual leaderships Israeli and tribal do not want war. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have a different bread and butter.
Thatâs absurd. Hamas is not the expression of Palestinianâs frustrated desires to work earnestly towards a two-state solution. Hamas exists to prevent a two-state solution. Hamas exists to prevent peace. They are an organization of ultra-religious terrorists who exist to wage war against Israel, return the entire mandate area to Arab rule, eliminate any non-Muslim presence in the region, and kill as many Jews as possible in the process. During the time when Israel was perhaps most earnestly working toward a two-state solution (around the Oslo accords, when Labor governed Israel and Yitzhak Rabin died for his work to get to peace), Hamas was one of the leading actors fighting those efforts.
LOL! The Israeli government goal is to defeat and destroy Hamas in everything I have read. You contradict yourself in the same post. Do you even read what you post?
Following the first attacks Bibi called it âOur 9/11.â I think that was unfortunate because it vastly understates the issue, although the shock felt by the Israeli people was probably pretty much the same.
But Israel is a vastly smaller country than the US; the death toll on the first day - proportionally - was 30 times higher than 9/11. And saying â9/11â conveys the idea that it was a couple dozen terrorists making a lot of noise.
In fact, there were 29 attack points within Israel. The attacks were carried out by dozens, even hundreds of terrorists on hang gliders, overland, and by sea assault on each target . Multiple cities were hit simultaneously, and hundreds were killed outright, an unknown number kidnapped and spirited away for future bargaining, presumably.
The scale of these attacks will surely bring the vaunted Israeli intelligence apparatus under question; how do you coordinate hundreds even thousands of jihadists in a coordinated attack against dozens of targets without so much as a peep?
(A dozen Saudis and airplanes on 9/11: diabolical but clever, and fairly easy to conceal. Hundreds of simultaneous terrorist attacks in disparate cities up and down the state of Israel? Almost unthinkable. Itâs as though the 9/11 attacks happened in New York and Washington. And Philadelphia and Chicago and Los Angeles. And Dubuque and Milwaukee. And Atlanta and New Orleans.)
I am not letting Bibi, nor the Israeli treatment of Palestinians off the hook, surely they have not made the situation any better, but I do understand the emotional, political, and military response of the Israeli state given the size and scope of what has happened. (Any comparison to Germany in WWII is inapt, that was multiple nation states in a declared war following large scale military tactics over several continents. Not remotely the same.)
This is the reason there is no need to defeat them. If Hamas is weakened enough the Tribal leaderships would fill the void. Israel can work with sound Palestinian leaders.
Israel also needs new sound leaders instead of the right wing Likud nut cakes that have destroyed the 2 state solution. Can Israel produce new sound leaders after decades of right wing nut cakes?
Yes
x20x20x20x20x20x20x20x20x20x20x20.
Getting them into office is a totally different issue.
There are many, many different opinions and beliefs about whatâs going on in the area right now. But one thing I think everyone might agree on is that the events of 10/7, and whatâs happening afterwards, are going to scramble Israeli politics beyond recognition. I donât think anyone knows what the intermediate-term outcome will be, but I think itâs a fair guess that the issues that Israelis base their votes on in the next election are going to be very different than they have in the last few.
The problem of a powerful voting fast growing fully subsidized demographic that has no economic, military service, nor even living near the frontiers concerns, but only hyper-religious fixations with drastic social and strategic implications, must be confronted, eventually.
So, good luck with that!
d fb
Are you talking about Israel or the US or Iran or �
LOL!
Israel, but you are correct, all manner of sub populations in all manner of nations can be imagined or argued to fit that standard.
The idea of a polity as only possible with a fundamental basis in shared responsibilities is essential.
david fb
Keep in mind the lurch the US took after 9/11, to made up wars abroad and police state policies at home. If âBibiâ loses his position, it could be to even more reactionary elements.
Steve
Thereâs no âifâ in this case. Israelis are willing to forgive their politicians for almost anything. But they are NOT ever willing to forgive them for large security screwups. After the war, there will be a brief âcommissionâ to determine the errors made, and then a number of resignations will occur, including the PM. Similar to what Golda Meir did after the errors of the Yom Kippur war in 1973.
I assume youâre talking about the Haredi, and they certainly pose challenges for both civic integration and governance. Those challenges are only magnified in a Parliamentary system with close divisions between the âordinaryâ governing coalitions, giving the Haredi a very large voice on the issues that they care a lot about that many (most) other citizens donât prioritize.
But like I said - I think these events will scramble Israeli politics and break a lot of older coalition habits. The ability of the Haredi to extract concessions for themselves may be lessened going forward.
There might be something to be said for keeping the religious folks out of the military.
In the US we have the religious folks as military families.
Who is the most war-like?
I am not asking about small skirmishes as are happening in Gaza.
While we point our fingers at everyone elseâŚIraqâŚAfghanistan? I can actually rationalize those warsâŚbut they are not small skirmishes for a month or two. Ukraine is a larger matter eventually than Iraq was for us. Chechnya? Makes China out to be darling and cute. Surveillance of 1 billion people for absolute control? No wonder we are fighting.
Well, jaagu, I notice that you did not address the missile attacks coming out of Gaza. In addition you wrote nothing about the lack of uniforms on the part of Hamas. This is a violation of the responsibility to distinguish combatants from noncombatants.
Concerning civilian buildings:
Rule 10. Civilian Objectsâ Loss of Protection from Attack
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule10
Loss of protection of civilian objects must be read together with the basic rule that only military objectives may be attacked. It follows that when a civilian object is used in such a way that it loses its civilian character and qualifies as a military objective, it is liable to attack. This reasoning can also be found in the Statute of the International Criminal Court, which makes it a war crime to intentionally direct attacks against civilian objects, provided they âare not military objectivesâ.
DB2