Is there any legal reason to keep General Durable Powers of Attorney, Health Care Durable Powers of Attorney, or Living Will documentation after death? Thankfully, I never had to use any of these.
My father died in Jan 2021 and the estate is still open. Obviously, I plan to keep the court documentation naming me as executor.
Thanks,
HHP
They have zero effect now. I suppose the only reason is to prove (in the case of property power of attorney) that you had authority to sign something before his death (e.g., tax return, beneficiary designation etc.). But, the reality is any institution permitting you to use a POA would have required a POA. So, unless you know something critical that you signed as agent, then I think it is safe to destroy them.
Mike
Thanks Mike!
Generally agree with the other poster, POAs are now moot. However, since the estate is still open, I’d keep them until it is settled. I’ve seen people/families argue over trivial stuff/money and make crazy accusations. With those still in hand, it can settle some disputes before they start.
JLC
I find keeping a few significant pieces of paper around not much of a hassle given the problems they can help avoid. Generally I keep all significant documents for a decade after last use. The triggering time in this instance would be the later of filing taxes or the entire estate is distributed.
When the estate is closed, it’s easy enough to put everything in a file box, label it with a destruction date, and stick it in the back of a storage area.
Thanks JLC. I appreciate the perspective and will keep these for a while rather than shred them now.
Thanks Jonathan. I am moving this year so I am trying to shred what I can rather than move it. I would much rather be safe than sorry so I will keep them for now.
I am trying to shred what I can rather than move it.
You could always just retain an electronic copy. You likely don’t need the original.
At the very least, use a smart phone and take photos of every document. It’s the poor man’s scanner.
You could always just retain an electronic copy. You likely don’t need the original.
At the very least, use a smart phone and take photos of every document. It’s the poor man’s scanner.
Those are great ideas for saving space.
A little bit of a rant and some food for thought about computers, phones, electronic media and estates.
Maybe it’s just me showing my age, or because I worked on very large software projects back in the early days when you built your own version control tools, but I have concerns about long term storage, organization and retrieval of electronic media.
Paper definitely takes up more space. I currently have 4 stuffed full file boxes with estate paperwork. There is still more coming. Originally I had over 4 times that amount, but as I go through this process I am learning what I need to retain and what I can discard. Eventually I will be able to get that down to 1 or 2 boxes. I also have electronic files and emails that I need to retain for some period of time. I will probably end up printing out and storing the most important ones in file boxes rather than the other way around.
I find paper easier to organize. It’s easier to locate what I need. I don’t end up with 5 copies in 5 different places. It’s easier to permanently destroy when no longer needed. And, because it takes up space, I am more likely to look through it regularly and cull it down as items are no longer essential.
It’s been over 13 months since my father passed. I believe I have found, touched, and made a decision about every piece of paper that my parents retained. I still have a pile of CDs, memory sticks, external hard drives, and a laptop with files and email messages that I have not finished sorting through. There are files I won’t be able to open. My Dad was a tech guy and remained one until the day he died. I have already tossed his old floppy discs (both styles) and boxes of old software applications.
The volume of electronic media is going to make settling estates more and more difficult. Now that storage is cheap, no one deletes anything. Important things get lost in the volume. People are not good about backups. I don’t trust the Cloud for long term storage.
I am lucky that my father showed me all of his passwords and encouraged me to verify I could access all of his important accounts. Without those passwords I would have had a very difficult time paying bills, viewing statements, closing accounts, etc. I have a friend who still hears from her deceased mother’s Facebook account, 10 years after her mother’s death. Her mother died young and unexpectedly and her children could not find any of her passwords. It caused them a lot of headaches.
My brother is the backup executor if something happens to me before my father’s estate is settled. The physical paperwork is well organized in files and file boxes. My computer is another story. He would have to find/figure out my password, locate the folder called “Estate Documentation”, and sift through hundreds of files. Decluttering and organizing my PC is just one more item on my To Do List…
Rant over. We should all think about the people who will need to access our accounts and files after we pass.
Fortunately my father didn’t have much in terms of computer stuff. I did find one email address and I sent the lady an email letting her know he had passed away. She was very appreciative since she had been trying to contact my father to see how he was doing (she was a CNA and worked with him for years in taking him to various medical appointments).
The digital age can also cause some embarrassment because it is easy to keep and forget about possibly sensitive stuff someone may not want others to see. We didn’t have that issue.
And yeah, think of those who have to go through your stuff, it is a painful thing to do. Fortunately my parents had moved into a retirement center (my mom passed away back in 2009) so cleaning out the apartment was less painful than a house with a basement.
My dad only had 1 bank account, 1 brokerage (Vanguard), 1 car and no other property so it wasn’t too bad although it is tedious to contain people to cancel things. For example his pension was taken over by PBGC and I never once was able to speak to someone (I was #130 on hold, call backs never worked, etc.). Finally one of the prompts gave me an email address for a death certificate and that worked to cancel it.
And I’m still dealing with Vanguard because there systems are so out dated (it involves the fact I once had accounts but closed them out and they can only process my inheritance via paper forms and postal mail, makes no sense to me but I’m trying that before contacting my attorney).
I have boxes of files from my dad. Many I can shred since they are taxes from years ago. Some stuff are things involving my mom’s funeral/estate and also his mother’s estate.
Once in a while you come across very nice items like old photos I had never seen, or my dad’s boy scout compass (probably from mid 1940s). I think my dad went on a cleaning binge after my mom’s death and may have thrown out stuff I would have wished he kept but I think he was quite upset at the time and maybe didn’t want to be remembered of some stuff. For example I thought my mom had a lot more photos than what we found. I don’t blame him, if anything, it was my fault for not being around to help him out after her death. Since things I didn’t handle well when I was younger.
Depending on the age of the computer, some are probably pretty hackable. Newer ones would be more difficult.
I need to clean up my finances for my wife since my stuff is a huge mess. I don’t like to rely on any one company since things can and do go wrong with access to accounts. Usually quickly fixed but not always.
Computer wise if you do a complete clone and store it somewhere safe, and then store the password elsewhere, then someone can always access data that way. As mentioned before, sometimes you might not want to see some data (hopefully that is rare but I’ve heard some stories).
Rich
Those are great ideas for saving space.
A little bit of a rant and some food for thought about computers, phones, electronic media and estates.
Maybe it’s just me showing my age, or because I worked on very large software projects back in the early days when you built your own version control tools, but I have concerns about long term storage, organization and retrieval of electronic media.
Paper definitely takes up more space. I currently have 4 stuffed full file boxes with estate paperwork. There is still more coming. Originally I had over 4 times that amount, but as I go through this process I am learning what I need to retain and what I can discard. Eventually I will be able to get that down to 1 or 2 boxes. I also have electronic files and emails that I need to retain for some period of time. I will probably end up printing out and storing the most important ones in file boxes rather than the other way around.
I find paper easier to organize. It’s easier to locate what I need. I don’t end up with 5 copies in 5 different places. It’s easier to permanently destroy when no longer needed. And, because it takes up space, I am more likely to look through it regularly and cull it down as items are no longer essential.
It’s been over 13 months since my father passed. I believe I have found, touched, and made a decision about every piece of paper that my parents retained. I still have a pile of CDs, memory sticks, external hard drives, and a laptop with files and email messages that I have not finished sorting through. There are files I won’t be able to open. My Dad was a tech guy and remained one until the day he died. I have already tossed his old floppy discs (both styles) and boxes of old software applications.
The volume of electronic media is going to make settling estates more and more difficult. Now that storage is cheap, no one deletes anything. Important things get lost in the volume. People are not good about backups. I don’t trust the Cloud for long term storage.
I am lucky that my father showed me all of his passwords and encouraged me to verify I could access all of his important accounts. Without those passwords I would have had a very difficult time paying bills, viewing statements, closing accounts, etc. I have a friend who still hears from her deceased mother’s Facebook account, 10 years after her mother’s death. Her mother died young and unexpectedly and her children could not find any of her passwords. It caused them a lot of headaches.
My brother is the backup executor if something happens to me before my father’s estate is settled. The physical paperwork is well organized in files and file boxes. My computer is another story. He would have to find/figure out my password, locate the folder called “Estate Documentation”, and sift through hundreds of files. Decluttering and organizing my PC is just one more item on my To Do List…
Rant over. We should all think about the people who will need to access our accounts and files after we pass.
Rich,
I can relate to so much of what you describe. My father still receives mail and email almost every day. Most of it is junk and spam at this point, but some of it still needs to be handled.
I had to laugh to myself when you said these:
Once in a while you come across very nice items like old photos I had never seen, or my dad’s boy scout compass (probably from mid 1940s)
sometimes you might not want to see some data (hopefully that is rare but I’ve heard some stories)
My father couldn’t deal with cleaning out my mother’s things. He put it all in boxes and kept it, so I had to sort through her things also. I found piles of old family photos of people I had never met. I took pictures of some of them and sent them to my aunt to find out if they were family and if I should label them and keep them. It turns out my grandfather had a child out of wedlock with another woman before he married my grandmother. My mother and sisters learned of their half-brother when he died while they were in high school. My mother never told us anything about this. I am learning a lot I never knew about my family.
As I am packing up to move this year, I look at every item and think about the person who may need to sort through it when I leave this planet.
Scanning and saving on-line is an alternative to paper copies.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For things like account statements, or other records of investments, then probably yes. But we’re talking about things like legal documents, for which you just sometimes need the original.
And when transferring accounts, yes, a signed “wet-ink” paper copy (notarized or with a medallion guarantee) is the only acceptable item. Somebody mentioned Vanguard as being backwards in this regard, but it’s not. That’s the prevailing practice just about everywhere I encountered with my father’s estate.
Bill
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For things like account statements, or other records of investments, then probably yes. But we’re talking about things like legal documents, for which you just sometimes need the original.
My experience is that needing the hard original copy is rarely needed. Death certificates are the only thing I can think of, off hand. Maybe when presenting a Power of Attorney too.
When you need to provide a your credentials as the court-appointed executor/personal rep., you need a certified copy with the court seal on it. That’s the way it is here, anyway. And the court charges a fee for each copy, just like with death certificates. So when starting the process you should always have a discussion with your attorney about how many you’ll need. And allow a few extra.
Bill
When you need to provide a your credentials as the court-appointed executor/personal rep., you need a certified copy with the court seal on it. That’s the way it is here, anyway. And the court charges a fee for each copy, just like with death certificates. So when starting the process you should always have a discussion with your attorney about how many you’ll need. And allow a few extra.
That was my experience also.
When you need to provide an original, ask if you can have it back. I used one original short certificate (the state of PA court credentials) 7 or 8 times – banks, post office, to transfer car title, etc. The original needed to be presented, but most entities checked the seal, made a copy for their files and returned the original.
Whenever my attorney’s office had to mail an original death certificate and/or court document, they would include a self-addressed stamped envelope with a note requesting the original be returned.
One day I went to my bank for something and there in the lobby was my attorney who set up my will and other things. I asked why he was there, and he said he was trying to get information about a deceased client’s account because the client had set up things on bill pay and he was just finding out about it because there was no information(paper) about….numbers, passwords, account names. He has to go on a fishing expedition to get this information.
That’s why I have a information file with all the relevant information for my lawyer who also will be the executor of my estate.
I took care of my Dad’s estate and my uncle’s estate……it ain’t easy going through a mish mash of information and forget about electronic files. Mine aren’t organized and unless you have backups that you regularly put in a safe deposit box, well, things get out of date quickly.
Someone on another board years ago talked about this and he talked about having a “To my loved ones” file with all sorts of relevant information concerning his estate….account numbers and passwords, everything one would need to get things going smoothly financially after he dies as well as his belongings and other things. It struck me as so kind and thoughtful of his loved ones and executor to do this and smart too, so that’s why I did it.
I’ve done my share of forensic accounting and well, let’s say, I’d rather be doing other things. 
Lucky Dog
Yeah, it is messy. We are still trying to do my father’s taxes and the current question is “Did he receive any stimulus payments?” I seem to recall him laughing about getting at least one but I’m not sure if that was for 2020 or 2021. I know there are income caps (I didn’t receive any) and that it wasn’t all or nothing (i.e., depending on the income you got a smaller amount).
My brother checked the banking info he had and we saw 3 unknown deposits but one was way too large, one probably too small and the other was a maybe.
The other consideration is that often the inheritors themselves can be up there in age and not always full of energy as they once were. For example, I had a friend whose mother passed away in her 90s and he was into his 70s and slowing down himself. I’m “only” in my 50s but it was stressful and tiring to go through document, possessions, etc. Doing this in my 70s isn’t something I would want to do.
You also have to be careful of attorneys depending on the practice. When I came back to Maryland I knew one and had him review a trust that I had issues with. Sadly midway through his review he passed away. It was just him in the practice. His wife found my documents and returned them.
So it is possible for your attorney not being around due to passing away, moving, etc.
The easiest thing to do is to minimize the number of accounts but that is also the least secure in terms of hacking, or something going wrong and losing access to the account so I always prefer two of everything which makes things more difficult.
My mom is 88. I know her time is in ten years or less and I dread her estate. It’s ugly complicated. She thinks it’s all fine and simple but it’s not. She loans people money on land contracts so there’s a bunch of those. Two rentals. Vacant land. Stuff she won’t sell because taxes. Bunch of accounts. A retirement account.
I’m probably the only kid with the IQ to deal with it all so it’ll just fall on me. My dad had less money but left nothing but CDs behind. I won’t get to mourn because I’ll be months doing paperwork and tax returns. She’s still alive and I already resent it.
Sigh.