Yellen on overturning Roe

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/yellen-striking-down-roe-v-wa…
Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said Tuesday that repealing Roe v. Wade would damage the U.S. economy, a week after a leaked draft opinion showed a majority of the Supreme Court voted to overturn the 49-year-old decision.

“I believe that eliminating the right of women to make decisions about when and whether to have children would have very damaging effects on the economy and would set women back decades,” Yellen said during a Senate Banking Committee hearing after Sen. Bob Menendez (D-NJ) asked her about the economic implications of overturning Roe V. Wade.

/snip

Speaking to Senators on Tuesday, Yellen said research shows that denying women access to abortion increases their odds of living in poverty or relying on public assistance. Moreover, she said, research shows that Roe v. Wade has had a favorable impact on the wellbeing and earnings of children.

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Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen said Tuesday that repealing Roe v. Wade would damage the U.S. economy…

So, putting GDP on one axis and ex-fetus (feti?) on the other, what is the shape of that curve?

DB2

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So, putting GDP on one axis and ex-fetus (feti?) on the other, what is the shape of that curve?

Inverted bell curve?

Pete

So, putting GDP on one axis and ex-fetus (feti?) on the other, what is the shape of that curve?

Inverted bell curve?

No, because a bell curve is at the same level on each end. That would mean that zero abortions would have the same effect on the economy as 100% abortions.

DB2

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No, because a bell curve is at the same level on each end. That would mean that zero abortions would have the same effect on the economy as 100% abortions.

More precisely (or less, in some ways), maybe a modified bell curve?

Pete

Not any kind of a bell curve. If we are lucky, it is just linear cause and effect, but it could well be exponential. I’ll have to ponder that one.

<So, putting GDP on one axis and ex-fetus (feti?) on the other, what is the shape of that curve?>

Let’s put this into Macroeconomic terms.

Every child born requires inputs (education, medical) and eventually produces outputs (work product on the positive side, crime on the negative side).

If I was plotting this on a chart, I would not use GDP since the services (teachers, doctors) add to GDP even when the child costs society. I would look at net economic contributions.

I would plot the children with two different categories: wanted and unwanted (children which the mother would prefer to abort but did not have access to the abortion service).

I would chart the mothers similarly: women who had children they wanted and women with a child they wanted to abort but were forced to bear and raise the child. Earnings would be positive, while public expense would be negative. The net contribution or deduction would be integrated over a lifetime.

It is very clear from the past 40 years of history that women who want their children have more successful children who (on average) grow up to be more productive members of society than unwanted children. A good case has been made that the crime rate fell about 20 years after Roe v. Wade legalized abortion.

“We estimate that crime fell roughly 20% between 1997 and 2014 due to legalized abortion. The cumulative impact of legalized abortion on crime is roughly 45%, accounting for a very substantial portion of the roughly 50-55% overall decline from the peak of crime in the early 1990s.”

The 1972 Rockefeller Commission on “Population and the American Future” cites a 1966 study which found that children born to women who had been denied an abortion "turned out to have been registered more often with psychiatric services, engaged in more antisocial and criminal behavior, and have been more dependent on public assistance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_e…

Many women who choose abortion can’t afford to raise a child (or another child if they already have children). Forcing a woman to bear a child she would rather abort almost always results in lower living standards for the woman, possible loss of job and burden on Medicaid and other public aid programs. Many of these women are unmarried since usually a husband helps support the family.

Despite the fact that cohabiting parents are younger and less educated than solo parents, they are still far less likely to be poor. All told, 16% of unmarried parents living with a partner are living below the poverty line, while about one-fourth (27%) of solo parents are. In comparison, just 8% of married parents are living in poverty. Married parents who are not living in poverty are much less likely to want to abort a child.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2018/04/25/the-cha…

The chart of benefit vs. cost to society would be very clear.

The mother with the wanted child: The mother’s contribution would decline as long as she remained home with the child. This could be as short as a few weeks if she quickly returned to work. If the family has a working dad (and/or mom) and health insurance the family would pay for the child’s food, shelter and medical care. The locality would pay for education. The child would likely grow up to be a productive adult and add to economic activity. The area under the curve would be strongly positive when integrated over the child’s life.

The mother with the unwanted child: Some 75% of abortion patients in 2014 were poor (having an income below the federal poverty level of $15,730 for a family of two in 2014) or low-income (having an income of 100–199% of the federal poverty level).

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-unite…

A poor woman who has an unwanted child will be a tremendous burden on the state. She and the child will need to be provided with food, financial support and medical care. Like the wanted child, the unwanted child will cost the state to be educated. But the unwanted child will have more need for public assistance and will have a higher risk of criminal behavior, further costing the state. The area under the curve would be less strongly positive (and possibly negative) when integrated over the child’s life.

I worked in the X-ray department and the phone counseling department of an abortion-providing hospital in 1973 when New York was one of the few states to provide legal abortions. I spoke with and met many of the women who came for abortions. These women did not want to have their child. They would not have been good mothers if forced to have the child since they were too young, not married, resentful, etc.

Even a pro-life writer recognizes the harmful effect that banning abortion will have on the American economy. He’s OK with that for his religious reasons, but the objective analysis shows that abortion is good for the Macro economy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/10/opinion/roe-overturn-cons…

I believe in the First Amendment. I believe that rational, not religious, factors should regulate abortions. The woman should have full control of her own body. If she belongs to a religion that disapproves of abortion she is free to NOT have an abortion. But the government should not be able to force women to follow the rules of other religions. Especially since the objective data shows that that elective abortion is beneficial for the economy and society as a whole.

Wendy

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I’m kind of divided on this.

I mostly like the conclusion of Roe v. Wade.

But I’ve actually read it, and wondered what the judges were smoking. It isn’t as much of a counterfactual travesty as the Dred Scott decision, but there is some weird-looking “logic” in there. As well as several credible arguments being dealt with by simply ignoring them entirely.

Further, I find the position of “there isn’t enough of a consensus to make a single nationwide dictate appropriate, so let’s let the various states try various approaches and watch the results” extremely plausible.

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I mostly like the conclusion of Roe v. Wade. But I’ve actually read it, and wondered what the judges were smoking.

There Is a Reason Why Roe v. Wade’s Defenders Focus on Its Results Rather Than Its Logic
https://reason.com/2022/05/10/there-is-a-reason-why-roe-v-wa…
The abortion precedent has faced withering criticism, including damning appraisals by pro-choice legal scholars, for half a century…Prior to joining the Court, Ruth Bader Ginsburg criticized Roe’s reasoning and its scope…

Harvard law professor Lawrence Tribe offered a similar assessment around the same time. “One of the most curious things about Roe is that, behind its own verbal smokescreen, the substantive judgment on which it rests is nowhere to be found,” Tribe wrote in the Harvard Law Review.

DB2

I believe in the First Amendment. I believe that rational, not religious, factors should regulate abortions. The woman should have full control of her own body.

Amen.

The problem is that this not about abortions.

And it’s not about saving the life of babies.

It’s about controlling women and THAT has huge negative macro economic implications.

AW

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One other factor often overlooked but well studied and TIGHTLY correlated to a drop in crime rates (especially juvenile) from the early 1970s to the early 1990s…

…the elimination of leaded gasoline.

It’s also interesting to ponder associated labor issues with a potential spike in additional births. The last two years of erratic local policies on masking and in-person versus remote schooling piled on to years of existing stress from low pay, expectations of teachers being mass shooting grief counselors and PC police to drive THOUSANDS out of both primary/secondary school and day care.

In 2019 (latest stat I could find), there were 630,000 abortions performed in the US. It seems unlikely that if half the states enact bans and the other half do not that EVERY woman in a ban state will succeed at obtaining the procedure somewhere else. There’s no way to guess the actual number but for discussion, assume half the scenarios in ban states result in full term births. That’s 50% of 50% of 630,000 or 157,500 extra children. With an average US class size of 21 students, that requires 7500 new teachers. Do the ban states think they can COMMAND workers to join or re-enter a workforce that has been ABANDONED like a burning theater?

Since many looming state bans do not include exemptions for severe health issues of the child, it is possible demand for NICU nurses and doctors will spike, producing gaps which cannot be filled instantly at any price. The skills take YEARS of specialized training to develop.

WTH

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<It’s about controlling women and THAT has huge negative macro economic implications.>

You got that right!

Ironically, the control is based on circular reasoning.

Before birth control was invented, women were prohibited from free sex because the men wanted to know for sure that the child was theirs since they would be supporting it. Fair enough. Single women had a very difficult time supporting a child alone since there were few good jobs for women. Women depended on men for support. Widows had a hard time surviving even if they didn’t have children.

Since women have a natural urge to have sex, very strong social rules were put in place to prevent women from having free sex. These rules were called “sexual morality.” The rules were rooted in the practical necessity of men controlling women’s reproduction. Women who got pregnant out of wedlock were called sluts who often starved along with their child.

Once birth control was invented, women could have free sex without becoming pregnant. The rules of sexual morality no longer had a practical basis. If the woman became pregnant despite birth control, she could have a modern, safe abortion. Men’s control of women’s sexuality was no longer needed.

Some men (not all, thank goodness!) had an answer to that. They WANTED to control women’s sexuality even though it was no longer needed. They are working on outlawing abortion. Birth control will probably be next on the list. Removing the technology turns back the clock to a time when there was a valid reason for control.

That’s the circular reasoning. We control women’s behavior because we need to. When technology advances so we don’t need to, we remove the technology so we have to go back to controlling women.

It truly is all about controlling women’s sexuality and reproduction. And that does have huge Macroeconomic implications.

Wendy

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There was an article at Yahoo News related to this.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/the-economic-cost-of-abortion…
If states insistent on banning abortion wanted to mitigate the economic damage, they’d establish stronger support networks for reluctant mothers, and especially low-income ones, that include free or subsidized child care and health care. They’d also find new ways to impose the economic burden as equitably as possible on the fathers of unwanted children, as well as the mothers, to address the bias already working against women in the labor force and make sure men feel the same fear about becoming an accidental parent as women do.

This is unlikely to happen in most states that ban abortion, given that economic concerns are mostly an afterthought in what is mostly a cultural, political and religious battle. We already see this in another controversial issue: Immigration. Economists broadly argue that more legal immigration generates more economic activity, which benefits everybody, because more people working means more people spending and stronger economic growth. Plus, immigrants to the United States are more entrepreneurial than native-born Americans. More legal immigration, in fact, is one glaring solution to the current labor shortage.

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It is not only about controlling women (although that is a crucial motivation), it is also about imposing a stunningly religious craziness on everyone – the notion that life begins when God sends a soul into a fetus, and that that moment is conception.

E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/12/ivf-treatmen…

This follows from peculiar oddities of the form of Roman Catholic belief in the virginal conception of Jesus.

david fb

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100% this is not singularly about abortion. This is about religious control sanctioned by the Supreme Courts. Done in the name of morality.

It will happen over and over again issue by issue a new half arsed logic that does not really hold up. Some will champion this and say they do not want the other things. Fools indeed.

…it is also about imposing a stunningly religious craziness on everyone – the notion that life begins when God sends a soul into a fetus, and that that moment is conception.

And what is the Gov’ts definition of when life begins? Did they ever finally arrive at one, or did they just kick that controversial can down the road?

IP

Expect birth control to be the next target.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/05/the-anti-aborti…

I imagine big pharma will not sit by idly because this will impact their business models unlike abortion.

Further, I find the position of “there isn’t enough of a consensus to make a single nationwide dictate appropriate, so let’s let the various states try various approaches and watch the results” extremely plausible.

If no one were hurt by this approach, it might make sense. But many people will be hurt quite badly.

We are just beginning to see how crazy this can get, with a bill proposing that women not be allowed to cross the state line without a negative pregnancy test. Imagine how that kind of craziness would affect people who work in Washington, DC, where the work force commutes from at least four states! Add in laws against IUD’s, and other utter shear insanity, such as laws that require ectopic pregnancies to continue until the pregnant women dies!

Another thing that is rarely mentioned is that illegal abortions frequently resulted in damage that caused miscarriages in the future.

I knew one women (now deceased) who desperately wanted a child and suffered five “after quickening” miscarriages; she had been forced by her husband to have an illegal abortion when she was quite young. Women are sometimes murdered by their abusive husbands when they become pregnant.

Darn it, it is women’s job to handle childbearing. The government ought to let them handle it.

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It truly is all about controlling women’s sexuality and reproduction. And that does have huge Macroeconomic implications.

There was a guest on Amanpour a couple weeks ago that had an interesting take on the rhubarb. I don’t recall his name, but he and his religious nutter father produced a lot of anti-abortion propaganda in the 70s. He asserted that, at the time Roe was decided, such Christian thought leaders as Billy Graham, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention, and Christianity Today were pro-choice. Over the years, Jerry Falwell was an ardent segregationist. By the early 70s, Falwell had lost the argument on segregation, and hit on abortion as the new thing he could get people whipped up about, so they would send him lots of money. Others jumped on the bandwagon, for money and support, for their personal benefit.

ah, the net is a wonderful thing. Here is that interview. (warning, highly political interview that names names)

Why this former anti-abortion activist regrets the movement he helped build

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25JyC5Whhvc

Steve

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Falwell had lost the argument on segregation, and hit on abortion as the new thing he could get people whipped up about,

Exactly.

Moving on from that, Falwell working together with Richard Viguirie and the conservative wing of the US Roman Catholic Bishops and associated hierarchy put together the “Moral Majority” era organizations as a means of making money like bandits, gaining political power (both in secular and religious votes), and bringing USian conservative Protestants together with Roman Catholics as a voting bloc. The “wink wink” agreement was that conservative protestants would oppose abortion as murder while the Catholic hierarchy would reign in their pro civil rights priests and not get too upset about dogwhistles.

The Federalist Society quietly joined in later, adding the crucial component of wealthy WASPy big money to a crusade to conquer USA via court appointments backing both big oil and big daddy morality.

And now here we are.

david fb