Average doctor in the U.S. makes $350,000/yr

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
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Public Health systems is NOT something like medicare for all, but instead springs from a very differernt cultural bias and mode of operation, and that mode includes intense education about food and food related diseases.

Public Health seeks health by providing for and educating about the most important disease related issues first and at no or very minimal cost to the population. That shift in priorities is immense. USAians lead in obesity, and that is not because of neglect of the problem by the “health care” industry, but because the problem is an immense profit center for USA Health Care, rather than a focus of caring and prevention.

We are getting the “Health Care” (ironic quote marks!) we are paying through the nose for.

david fb

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The “news” was atwitter about another diabetes drug being used for weight loss, with the same, supposed, extra benefit. Can’t help but wonder if the maker of the drug financed the “study” that they could tout to juice sales?

I remember, several years ago, Aricept was being touted for use by everyone to increase brain function.

Steve…pill free zone

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It was a 5-year, long-term study on 17,000 people in 41 countries showing that in addition to weight loss, it cut the risk of heart attack by 20%. There will be extreme pressure on health insurers and Medicare to cover the drug in the face of the large sample size and outstanding results.

Weight loss will also make you look taller and more handsome. It’s a veritable “fountain of youth”. {{ LOL }}

intercst

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My cousin’s wife’s exact words, “on a par”. There is more to that. Her family costs for healthcare are lower. Her cost to send her son and daughter to university is minimal. Son and engineer recently minted and daughter now minted undergrad going to law school next. In other words her Irish residency is worth more on that front. She is also a hospital doctor that pays more in her specialty in Ireland.

Vee, we just saw Norwegian doctors come within tens of thousands and then Europe trails off.

As far as difficulty goes some do leave if the pay and terms are bad. My dad left in 1962 for those reasons. Europeans need to be careful about underpaying med grads. Careful about treating them as less in the social structure of medicine as well. European hierarchies were nonsensical in the 1960s. Dont know now.

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Public health sounds too much like socialism and has the additional liability that blacks and Hispanics benefit from it. Innumerate White Supremacists will gladly pay double the cost for their own health care to screw those other people.

intercst

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That was one of the major stumbling blocks. Along the same lines the bigger stumbling block was women having healthcare…only if we must after all we do not want to support their children. sarcasm

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…and under normal (everywhere but USA) public health services a lot of work gets done by social workers, nurse assistants, technicians trained to work as teams, etc., cutting into the number of the still essential expensive and highly trained doctors needed. That last phrase is why the AMA worked with ferocious effectiveness ever since the turn of the last century to prevent real Public Health Service from being used in the USA. They wanted as few others as possible to take a cut of that work load and power and payment. Now they are being pressed and trapped by corporations still more powerful than them.

david fb

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The point of these google results is to point out the data is messed around with depending on how it is sourced. That is as true in the EU as in the US. Bottom of this list of results it is easy to get a green card for a doctor to stay here.

What is the salary of a specialist doctor in the US?

According to Glassdoor, the average salary of a medical doctor in the U.S. is $1,65,347 (around INR 13 million) per year. The highest average annual wage was $208,000 (Around INR 17 million) which went up from the lowest of $126,470 (Around INR 10 million).Jun 14, 2023

How Much Do Doctors Make Per Year? According to the MedScape Physician Compensation Report, doctor salaries continue to rise. In 2023, Primary Care Physicians in the United States earned an average of $265,000, while Specialists earned an average of $382,000.May 31, 2023

The British Medical Association (BMA) said that newly-qualified doctors earn just £14.09 an hour (€15.95), less than a barista at coffee shop chain Pret-a-manger (which pays £14.10, or €15.96), adding that junior doctors have had a 26 per cent real terms pay cut since 2008.

While many physicians are still recovering from the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, physician earnings have generally rebounded. Overall, Medscape’s 2022 physician salary report suggests that physician compensation will continue to grow.Nov 9, 2022

Why are physician salaries declining?

The average pay for doctors declined 2.4% in 2022, coming at a time when U.S. healthcare workers are facing significant challenges, including economic strains, a growing physician shortage and high rates of work-related burnout.Mar 23, 2023

What is the success rate of the green card?

Every year, about 810,558 immigrants apply to become U.S. Lawful Permanent Residents (“LPRs,” better known as green card holders) through family members. Of these, the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (“USCIS”) approves about 88% and denies 12%.

As of May 2023, the total number of professionally active physicians in the United States amounted to 1,077,115 physicians. From a state perspective, California had the most active physicians with 117,674 physicians, followed by New York.Jun 29, 2023

Consider some statistics: In 2021, approximately 1 in 5 active U.S. physicians were born and attended medical school outside the United States or Canada.Feb 23, 2023

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The problem with that argument is that most of the health care systems in Western Europe are suffering from the same difficulties as the US, except that it is the government running up the medical debt and the increased cost to consumers comes in the form of higher taxes rather than medical bills.

Obesity is rising rapidly in countries with all kinds of public health systems resulting in problematic heath economics regardless of whether medical delivery is public or private. That suggests that the obesity problem is not about how one does public health. It is not about capitalist versus socialist health care. It is more about culture. It is caused by those all-American memes that promote sodas, highly processed foods, and super-sized servings.

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The video game industry is about x2.5 the size of the movie business.

Being a couch potato is huge. Throw in a super size me and a car in the garage… jelly beans anyone?

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A bit too much of a Gish Gallop to contend with for rational responses but it’s safe to say that portraying Europe as a haven of higher than US salaries can be laid to rest. Doubling down on what a relative has told you doesn’t add credibility.

Although you initially excluded the UK from your statement, I’ll just mention that your low pay for UK new graduates is a bit misleading. Just like here in the US and most elsewhere in Europe, new graduates still have a few years of training ahead of them. Always at lower pay than whatever could be expected once post grad/specialty training has been completed. An apprenticeship with a stipend, if you will (wasn’t always the case in the UK pre NHS ) My starting salary as a “houseman” in 1976 was £2112 + London weighting (a fee to cover higher cost of living) … but that was more than my dad ever earned even with overtime. I don’t come from a medical family, see, but actually now being a medical family, I do know a thing or 17 about this topic.

As for the green card system, you quoted figures for immigrants with families who’re already legally resident here…you know, just like Melania Trump’s parents. European doctors don’t all fall into that category…except maybe that 17, 000 Norwegians you just saw arriving. Depending upon their level of training those European doctors might well not fall into an eligible category FOR a green card without some behind-the-scenes finagling…which my husband has done on a number of occasions for worthwhile candidates. Just like NHS junior hospital house staff pay, I have actual experience. FWIW, you might actually ask an American born and raised doctor about the hoops they’ve jumped through when moving to practise in a different state.

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These are serious accusations that really should be supported by some documentation. Another factor that I believe is probably far more important in the current design of the US health system is litigation. The threat of malpractice suits promotes defensive medicine, which includes a lot of unnecessary tests and a strong disincentive to allow medical advice from anyone other than a highly trained doctor.

The opposing POV is provided by the AMA, who argues:

Compared with nurse practitioners, physicians have 20 times more clinical training. And while all physicians get vital hands-on instruction, 60% of NP programs are mostly or completely online.

Expanding nonphysicians’ scope of practice also increases costs. For example:

  • X-ray ordering rose 441% among nonphysicians.
  • Nonphysicians needed twice the number of biopsies to screen for skin cancer.
  • Patients were 15% likelier to get an antibiotic from a nonphysician.
  • 6.3% of NPs prescribed opioids to more than half of their patients, compared with 1.3% of physicians.

And patients prefer physician-led care (PDF), with:

A more even-handed argument that does point out the flaws in the AMA position is made here: The AMA Can Help Fix the Health Care Shortages it Helped Create - Bill of Health

I don’t see either argument being completely persuasive. I will say that as the obesity epidemic continues it is becoming increasingly common for people to be afflicted by multiple serious ailments, creating a complex array of symptoms, medications, and side effects. Add to that the increasing array of new treatments resulting from ever improving technology. As a result, I tend to favor physician-led teams where the MD makes the final decision and is ultimately responsible. I guess that puts me on the side of the AMA when it comes to scope-of-practice.

If I need help, I am asking for the opinion of an MD. To be consistent I couldn’t ask less for anyone else.

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These are all choices. Democracy and free markets both assume that the average person can make rational choices. The average person can choose to get off the couch, order moderate portions, and walk more often. Those who choose playing video games over their health are accountable for that choice.

You can’t have individual freedoms without accountability. Freedom is a responsibility.

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But all the above are integral parts of US medicine to. Even if your portrayal of the AMA’s efforts were correct, it hasn’t prevented the incorporation of all the above into standard medical practice…and beyond, depending on who you listen to.

As compared to the training a physician receives …including the mandatory post grad requirements before being able to practice…both PAs and NPs are much smaller and limited. Not worse, just different. The requirements for PA and NP training are available online…the caveat being that the associations representing these groups/pA schools etc are likely to be marketing the idea of a general equivalence to physician training. Which is manifestly not the case.

What has, in fact, happened over the years is that the roles of what was originally intended to be an adjunct to a physician’s care has now been expanded … and to a certain extent, to beyond what their scope of practice ought to be based on length of training and clinical experience/expertise. Their representative bodies have pushed for an expansion of their autonomy and even independent practice. In practical terms …and depending upon individual state requirements and local culture…this has led to almost the whole of some primary care practices (especially those bought out by Optum and the like) becoming PA based. From diagnosis to treatment planning with an MD/DO lurking in the background to sign off on paperwork for insurance company purposes.

As mentioned upstream, this isn’t the care I’d want for myself or my loved ones…and don’t expect others to have to settle (unless they want to, of course) Here’s the kicker…it won’t cost them any less since, along with pushing for the privilege of practising like a doctor, there’s a push to be paid like a doctor. Not a bad ROI for deciding on not-an MD status

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I’m not sure why you think this matters. If it had ended in a generation, perhaps you would have a point. It didn’t. It existed for generations before the signing of the Declaration of Independence, for generations after the signing, for generations after the first US Constitutions, for generations more after the second US Constitution (which enshrined it in law), and eventually we had the most deadly war in American history over it, which was very nearly lost, and which threatened the breakaway of a significant part of the Union,

And, after “winning it”, those espousing racial superiority continued to achieve dominance through a complex series of laws and rules which enshrined discrimination for another hundred years .

And, I guess I should point out, even after significant efforts and legislation, there was still (and continues to be) less overt but still quite real discrimination in the form of redlining which has led to disparities in inter generational wealth, racist perceptions leading to the misidentification of lawbreakers (the overwhelming number of suspects later cleared by DNA during out to be people of color), and so on.

To pretend “it’s all fixed”, or worse “that it doesn’t matter because it lasted less here” is to rewrite history (“establish a false narrative”) and pretend it isn’t important (“because it doesn’t matter to me”). I would hope most people see through your sad logic, but alas there are still some who may not.

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I agree the discussion is somewhat irrelevant. It’s not that our country is fixed or that it doesn’t matter. History is an important teacher and it must be remembered, warts and all.
There is an ongoing attempt to connect the problems of today with the legacy of slavery. There is also a political and power motivation to suggest that those prejudicial views are widely held to this day and that there are still institutional forces at work to serve as obstacles to success.

The truth is there is little evidence to suggest so and more to the contrary. More importantly, it distracts from focusing on the root cause of those problems and then the best policies to address them and that is the real tragedy.

But if I’m wrong, show me one law or regulation currently in place, overt or not that serves as a race based obstacle. Intergenerational wealth in this country has little to no impact on the success or failure of most americans. More than 80% of Millionaires received zero inherited wealth. Of those in the bottom 20% of income earners, 75% of them will end up in the top 20% at some point in their lifetimes. If racism persists to this day, why do the average black and white households with two parents of similar education level have almost identical levels of income and wealth?

Poverty is not set in stone but it is part of the equation. What is clear with both blacks and whites in this country over the last 40 years is a continued increase in single motherhood rates and with it a rise in the failure of those children to finish high school and with it increased rates of incarceration. It’s why both demographics continue to fall in average income levels relative to other groups, such as Indian and Asian Americans, with higher rates of two parent households and education levels.

There have been roughly 3200 known wrongful conviction cases since 1989. Half of those convictions were blacks wrongfully accused. Those are terrible outcomes but they represent only a small portion of the total number of violent crimes committed in the country over the last 30 years. Despite representing less than 13% of the population, roughly 1/2 of all murders and violent assaults annually are committed by blacks, mostly in 8 major urban centers and overwhelmingly against other blacks.

This country is definitely not fixed but focusing on the wrong thing, isn’t going to fix it. If you care that much, get involved with a charter education program, volunteer to tutor, help sponsor students in poor performing public schools to attend private ones. Whining about the historical cruelty of mankind either as the proximate cause for continued generational poverty or poor performance or to place blame, is in my opinion a worthless exercise.

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You are asking for stats to make sense. Good luck with that. Then you shoot the messenger. Okay I could careless. You have no more cred than I do when you produce nothing as factual either. The character assassinations are garbage.

There is another issue in doctor’s pay. If a doctor works for hospital or clinic that is the pay for these averages. I know doctors who have private practices in those same offices which would totally skew the numbers.

Another issue, I went to a sleep doctor who worked for a hospital. He was paid by the quarter hour per patient assumably. But he had four beds for sleep studies in the back of the office. That belonged to the hospital. Was he paid for that as well? Was it counted in any of the stats produced? I know his ex wife. She was telling me he made $800k per year. That was not just done on the hourly salary. That is also regional. CT has specialists making far more than the stats so far have said.

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You seem to be making my point for me. If we had “medicare for all” there would be more patients in the teaching hospitals. Wealthy people will always have the opportunity to get their care at “bespoke”, private clinics.

Maybe things are different in Northern Louisiana? I always thought the best care was in the major academic medical centers where they are training physicians. If I got cancer in Houston, I’d go to MD Andersen.

intercst

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I agree with you completely on this. For example, the impact of Biden’s IRA package to rejuvenate US manufacturing will do far, far, more for Black Americans than anything the Black Lives Matter movement will ever accomplish. Economic opportunity and economic success is how institutional racism is overcome. I’ve long believed that the solutions to overcome black poverty are actually pretty simple. The road blocks are that the conservatives don’t seem to care and the progressives are more concerned about being ideological correct than actually accomplishing something.

Go to a year-round school schedule. The working poor would then have free child care and child lunches during the summer while improving their kids’ education. Eliminate football and basketball from middle and high school athletic programs. Saves money and will remove the destructive false hope of quick fame and glory through sports. Focus school physical education on good nutrition and sustainable exercise programs. A full school year will also increase teacher salaries as they will routinely be paid for 12 months instead of just 9. A lot of problems get addressed.

I bet year-round schooling would put a serious dent in our poverty rates.

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The progressives seem to have accomplished a lot and much more going forward.

Year round school wont happen because most adults take much of the summer off.

Besides try telling boomers we will hire your local teachers for another three months per year. LOL good luck.