What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
We did, and we should; everything we can, short of a direct attack on Russia.
Putin is counting on our dithering. You can’t let the bully run the schoolyard.
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What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
Well there was that little mess at Pearl Harbor? Oh and German Uboats sinking American ships in WWI! Come to think of it we and the Brits sent escort ships to help at the beginning of WWII when German Uboats were slaughtering American cargo ships on the East Coast.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time
Then there was the Korean thingy but that was actually a UN thing. Same I think when the Turks and Greeks did the Cyprus fist fight … we ended up with battalion sized peacekeeping troops rotating there for 29 years. I almost ended up on that one right up until my new company commander noticed my rifle team experience and decided that the Duke of Edinburgh Trophy was more important … just 3 days before I was supposed to leave for Cyprus. We didn’t win, nasty crosswind that day.
Afghanistan wasn’t technically a NATO area of interest but many countries showed up to help out anyway after 9-11 and after a lot of US politicians incorrectly blamed 9-11 on Canada. Our PM had to decide which war to support and figure the Iraq thing was a really bad idea. There are very few ‘Good’ wars.
Tim
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did we not come to the defense of others?
No. We did not.
We sat on the sidelines for almost all of WWI while millions of Europeans died.
We sat on the sidelines of WWII while literally all of Europe was attacked by Hitler. We didn’t enter the war until the Japanese attacked us. We defended no one except ourselves.
Why? Because America has had many periods of isolationism.
Particularly after 20 years of Afghanistan and Iraq, it would be very easy to convince the American public that “isolationism” would be good public policy today. Why should we fight other people’s wars for them? Why should we be dragged into Europe’s wars yet again? Why don’t “those people” spend enough money on defense to fight for themselves? I even think we heard someone echoing those sentiments very recently…
Oh, there would be a lot of Americans who would go along with it.
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What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
Actually not. After we were directly attacked, or had war declared on us, then yes.
We did, and we should; everything we can, short of a direct attack on Russia.
This is the dilemma that Roosevelt faced, how to help Britain without becoming directly involved because the American people were in isolationist mode at the time. He provided a limited amount of war materiel but did not put the country on war footing until much later. (He did put oil sanctions on Japan because of their intrusions in China and Asia, which eventually led them to Pearl Harbor.)
We are providing some support, but not enough and not fast enough in my view.
But, and I have to say, it is not NATO’s job to defend non-NATO countries, that’s not what the alliance calls for and it would be a virtual declaration of war against Russia by nations not currently involved in the conflict. As someone said upthread, find a “coalition of the willing” and I’m all in, but not NATO - unless there is a vote by NATO countries unanimously to do so. Doing otherwise could fracture the organization at a time when it is more needed than ever.
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During World War II, Stalin’s army attacked the Germans from the east with supplies delivered by the allies. After the war he refused to release the countries in Eastern Europe he had driven the Germans from.
Winston Churchill gave his iron curtain speech at Westminster College in Fulton, MO–defining the iron curtain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Curtain#Iron_Curtain_spee… Mar 6, 1946
The Truman doctrine called for containing communism by surrounding communist countries with defense alliances. Nato is the best known of those. But there was also Seato and I think Cento.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truman_Doctrine Mar 12, 1947
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What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
In 1956 the USA did not come to the aid of Hungary after they ousted the Russian puppet.
Hungarian Revolution of 1956—A Summary
https://www.historyonthenet.com/hungarian-revolution-2
Hungarian Revolution
Around 4000 Hungarians were killed between 4th and 10th November when the Russians took control. Nagy initially sought refuge in the Yugoslavian embassy but was later captured by the Russians. He was executed in June 1958.
https://www.historyonthenet.com/hungarian-revolution
In 1968 the USA did not come to the aid of Czechoslovakia
The Prague Spring
For four months in 1968, Czechoslovakia broke free from Soviet rule, allowing freedom of speech and removing some state controls. It is now referred to as the Prague Spring, but why didn’t it last?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z9hnqhv/revision/6
The Captain
learned early not to expect help
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What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
NATO was in Kosovo…the issue is not NATO entering in on Ukraine’s side. The issue is it is winter and the western Europeans still need Russian fuel. The public and the politicos need the case to build…and as Finland and Sweden turn to NATO will Russia put forces on Finland’s border?
As those things happen this spring…NATO will coordinate a possible military response in Ukraine, Belarus and to support Finland.
But why would the current leadership explain that to Putin? Putin only listens to his own counsel.
did we not come to the defense of others?
No. We did not.
Again yes we did in Kosovo.
Many people prior to WWII, as now, were fighting against isolationism, wanting to curb the spread of the Nazis. Only when we were attacked and war was declared on us were Congress and the public finally convinced of the danger. By then, many lives had been lost in Europe.
I think we could do much more in Ukraine, before things get worse.
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We sat on the sidelines for almost all of WWI while millions of Europeans died.
The US, as always, was more concerned with rope.
The US money interests were making a bundle trading with Germany during the war. Many more countries in Europe were neutral on that go around, so the money interests were shipping goods to the neutral countries, where they could be easily reshipped to Germany.
The Brits had enough ships to blockade Europe, and started stopping US flag ships that were bound for neutral ports, and inspecting them for contraband. A lot of US ships were impounded, their cargoes sold, and the money pocketed by the crown.
The US objected, loudly, until the UK showed the US Secretary of State that US shipments of certain materials to the neutral countries had increased by an order of magnitude, since the start of the war. What were the Dutch, Danes and Norwegians doing with all that material, if not shipping it to Germany?
What ultimately pulled the US into the war was the Zimmerman note, which directly threatened the US.
Steve
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We sat on the sidelines for almost all of WWI while millions of Europeans died.
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The US, as always, was more concerned with rope.
Nah, we just thought the Europeans could take care of things themselves.
DB2
Nah, we just thought the Europeans could take care of things themselves.
DB2
Well … the French brought in native troops from their colonies. The Brits brought in large numbers from India. South Africans Showed up as did former colonies such as New Zealand and Australia. The Canadians showed up with their volunteer army that eventually formed four “heavy”*** divisions who along with the rest of the allies carried out the “Hundred Days Offensive” leading to the Armistice of 11 November 1918.
While divisions in most armies got smaller as the war went on the Canadian Heavy divisions where far larger (generally 2.5 times or more than the size of French divisions) and kept at full strength. They had their own artillary rather than borrowed from Corps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days_Offensive
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%27s_Hundred_Days
Canada’s Hundred Days
…
During this time, forming part of the British First Army, the Canadian Corps fought in the Battle of Amiens, Second Battle of the Somme, Battle of the Scarpe, Battle of the Canal du Nord, Battle of Cambrai, Battle of the Selle, Battle of Valenciennes and finally at Mons, on the final day of combat before the Armistice of 11 November 1918. In terms of numbers, during those 96 days the Canadian Corps’ four over-strength or “heavy” divisions totalling roughly 100,000 men, engaged and defeated or put to flight elements of 47 German divisions, which represented one quarter of the German forces faced by the Allied Powers fighting on the Western Front.
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They had their own artillary rather than borrowed from Corps.
A problem the US had with entering the war was the US Army was little better than an underequipped militia. The US had to buy artillery from the French, airplanes from the French and Brits, machine guns from the French, rifles from the Brits.
The largest contribution the US made to the war effort was money. Besides financing it’s own war effort, the UK had been financing it’s allies. By April 1917, the UK was on the brink of exhausting it’s cash and credit. As soon as the US entered the war, it took over the job of financing everyone.
Steve
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Besides financing it’s own war effort, the UK had been financing it’s allies. By April 1917, the UK was on the brink of exhausting it’s cash and credit. As soon as the US entered the war, it took over the job of financing everyone.
Steve
The Germans had very serious financial problems as well as not being able to feed their starving population. The last gasp Spring offensive captured land but with great losses and to no good purpose as they quickly lost all of it and more.
Wartime food shortages in Germany in the winter of 1916–1917 were terrible. The civilian population called it the “turnip winter,” a bitter nickname, given the indignity of having to eat turnips, normally considered to be food fit only for cattle. Jan 27, 2017
Of course the cattle weren’t around to compete for the turnips as they had been slaughtered to feed the troops.
This once again proves that war is heck though round two was only a bit over 20 years in the future.
Anymouse
Canada’s war effort was financed mainly by borrowing. Between 1913 and 1918, the national debt rose from $463 million to $2.46 billion, an enormous sum at that time. Canada’s economic burden would have been unbearable without huge exports of wheat, timber and munitions. Aug 5, 2013
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Nah, we just thought the Europeans could take care of things themselves.
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Well … the French brought in native troops from their colonies. The Brits brought in large numbers from India. South Africans Showed up as did former colonies such as New Zealand and Australia. The Canadians showed up with their volunteer army that eventually formed four “heavy”*** divisions…
That European war turned into quite a protracted slugfest. By comparison, the Franco-Prussian war only lasted six months (July 1870 to January 1871). The Crimean War lasted two and a half years. I can see why people in the US (without the benefit of hindsight) weren’t eagerly jumping into another war in Europe.
DB2
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That European war turned into quite a protracted slugfest. By comparison, the Franco-Prussian war only lasted six months (July 1870 to January 1871). The Crimean War lasted two and a half years. I can see why people in the US (without the benefit of hindsight) weren’t eagerly jumping into another war in Europe.
DB2
Toss in the Spanish Flu which first showed up on a US army base and had a devastating effect on troopships bound for Europe … well it wasn’t exactly the perfect time to get involved in a foreign war? While History doesn’t repeat perfectly … there sure are a lot of similarities at times?
Tim
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/first-cases-repo…
1918 March 04
First cases reported in deadly 1918 flu pandemic
Just before breakfast on the morning of March 4, Private Albert Gitchell of the U.S. Army reports to the hospital at Fort Riley, Kansas, complaining of the cold-like symptoms of sore throat, fever and headache. Soon after, over 100 of his fellow soldiers had reported similar symptoms, marking what are believed to be the first cases in the historic influenza pandemic of 1918, later known as Spanish flu. The flu would eventually kill 675,000 Americans and an estimated 20 million to 50 million people around the world, proving to be a far deadlier force than even the First World War.
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What did we do before NATO, did we not come to the defense of others?
Forgot George Washingtons warning of forming a “permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world”.
Sometimes those alliances can drag you into a war you do not want and/or on the “wrong” side. WWI was triggered by the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand by a Serb. Austria eventually declared war on Serbia and previous alliances made things fall into place. If you were trying to judge right and wrong, Austria was wronged but Russia, France, Britain, and eventually the US was fighting against them and Italy and Germany.
I would be more willing for more direct involvement if we hadn’t wasted the past 2 generations in the Middle East et al.
I do find it ironic that Germany made a statement about upping their spending to the required NATO GDP portion after Russia attacked.
JLC
Forgot George Washingtons warning of forming a “permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world”.
Good advice, all those NATO guys that died in Afghanistan over 9/11 should have followed it.
Anymouse
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Hot of the text, the retired homie Lt/Gen reserve with PTSD from Afghanistan (he was the commander there and lost a lot of guys) who was supposed to be heading for Italy is now running the much expanded Canadian presence in Latvia. Trudeau was asked to provide more trainers and combat troops there. They are on the way. I can’t help but wonder who is watching the store in case our neighbour decides to invade us again? ;-@
Nap time.
Tim