EVs from 2021 to 2023 reported 80% more problems that internal combustion vehicles
DB2
1 Like
Did they rate EV reliability by brand and model?
The Captain
1 Like
For model info you probably have to have a CR subscription. This article has results by brand
The top two brands are Lexus and Toyota. At the bottom are Mercedes and Chrysler. Tesla is #17 out of 30.
DB2
They were marketed as being so simple - just a battery and a motor.
I think that they are a backward step at the moment.
And as our data has consistently shown, reliability-minded consumers would be best served by forgoing brand new vehicles in their first model year," said Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at CR.
I certainly agree with the sentiment. I don’t want to be a beta tester.
The Captain
1 Like
I agree and would extend this sentiment to include the second and even third year if sales aren’t high enough to work out the kinks. Doesn’t help if first year sales are only a few thousand and many of the eventual problems haven’t been reported in large enough numbers yet to be worked out by the second year. This may not completely apply to manufacturers that don’t work on a model year. Tesla, for example, will make manufacturing changes, even large-ish ones, throughout the year without any regard to “model year”. For those kind of manufacturers, you have to really research the state of the vehicle you are looking at - what’s been added/removed recently? what’s been changed recently? How often does new software arrive to fix things? Is the new software install done OTA and in a timely manner? Etc.
When they say “reliability” are they talking about low temp performance? Battery life? Range?
Turn the switch should be very reliable. Much less mechanical equip to service and maintain.
I think they are comparing apples and oranges. And maybe reporting consumer survey results.
You wonder if the EV surveys are well designed.
2 Likes
Panel gaps and rattles are “reliability” issues according to the article. In other words, panel gaps are not reliable, they come and go. So do rattles. 
The Captain
1 Like
IIRC, that is what CR does. Each year they have their members fill out questionnaires about the cars they drive.
DB2
1 Like
We shouldn’t miss this important point.
https://www.autonews.com/retail/evs-are-less-reliable-gasoline-vehicles-because-new-tech
EVs had 79% more problems than gasoline vehicles, according to Consumer Reports’ 2023 auto reliability survey. Hybrids scored best, with 26% fewer problems than gasoline-powered vehicles.
I suspect Toyota has the best reliability of hybrids since they have been making them for over 20 years.
And a few other important points:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/evs-less-reliable-than-conventional-cars-consumer-reports/ar-AA1kK3pN
While the survey found that electric vehicles are still less reliable than gas-powered vehicles, Consumer Reports recommended Tesla’s Model 3 and Model Y for those interested in purchasing an electric car. Steven Elek, who heads the auto data analytics program at Consumer Reports, said Tesla’s components are “generally reliable,” according to the magazine.
Plug-in hybrids are more likely to have more issues than gas-powered cars, EVs and hybrid vehicles. The survey said that plug-in hybrids have 146 percent more problems than gas-powered cars.
I was surprised at the PHEV factoid.
I an wondering if the problem with EVs & PHEVs is that the battery packs are located along the bottom of these vehicles due to the size and weight of the battery packs. The battery pack of non-PHEVs prius are higher up under the rear seat. Thus road obstructions can damage EV & PHEV battery packs.
I suppose the bottom of these vehicles could have metal shields installed. But it would have to be significant not just a thin sheet of metal. That would add weight & cost to a EV though. Of course this is just speculation on my part. I have not seen an article that specifies what the reliability issues are. Hopefully more detail will be forthcoming.
1 Like
There is another interesting takeaway of the report. What are the best selling vehicles in the US? Big pickups. What is the most unreliable class of vehicles sold in the US? Big pickups.
Steve
5 Likes
Well, that makes me feel better; as I just bought a new RAV4 Hybrid! Seems nice so far.
JimA
2 Likes
Gee. Not to mention the problem with theft of catalytic converters on the ICE models.
Does that affect reliability ratings?
1 Like
Not that I’ve heard of, but I haven’t done one of their questionnaires for a couple of decades.
DB2
Ok, look - this is more clickbait with a provocative headline. Not even sure whose axe it is to grind - CBC? For another take, if one were actually to read the article - for which they didn’t publish the ratings by vehicle - here are some anecdotes.
“growing pains…”
“2023 Chevrolet Bolt…wouldn’t shift into drive… after Coram had turned the car on and off 10 or 12 times, the problem fixed itself, and he hasn’t experienced it since. Other owners told Coram that he might have shifted into drive before the SUV’s computer had finished its startup sequence…”
“owners of Hyundai’s Ioniq 5 EV reported battery and charging issues related to a charging control computer, which, in some cases, caused the vehicles to stall.”
“In 2021, General Motors recalled its popular electric Bolt from the 2017 through 2022 model years to replace the batteries because of manufacturing defects that could cause fires.”
“Tesla ranked 14th out of 30 automotive brands in the 2023 survey, up from 19th in 2022.”
Tesla, the EV sales leader, which now has years of experience building vehicles, showed improvement in reliability, "
So, yeah - the first (or maybe second) round of EVs from mfrs who are just starting bigger production have reliability problems. When hasn’t that been the case? But one anecdote from one guy who can’t wait 5 seconds for the Bolt’s computer to boot up (and then doesn’t happen again) is not a basis for an indictment of a nascent industry. Recalls for defects that could cause fires? Scary sounding… but again, no context, no circumstances, no information compared to brake recalls, gas tank recalls, air bag recalls, etc etc etc… just… scare mongering.
There is a much BIGGER reason not to purchase non-Tesla EVs than this and its well published, well-known and the companies responsible are STILL not doing anything about it.
No data table published, no %s, no statistics… just, more crap FUD. Sad.
FC
4 Likes
No problem. If you want more numbers then become a member.
DB2
1 Like
That’s part of the problem. If this is how they report, then even the numbers are likely to be worthless. I was a subscriber many years ago, and it seemed like they were pretty good, but now I know a lot more. For example, for “reliability” they count each of these incidents as “one”, they have equal weight as far as the data and the charts and the conclusions go.
Incident 1) Customer says car wouldn’t start, but then starts a few seconds later consistently. Happened for first 2 weeks of ownership. Customer brought car to dealer to check out. Dealer service person starts car each time without any issues. Service person shows customer that they didn’t wait quite long enough for the car to boot up and it wasn’t seeing the press of the start button that quickly. Customer problem is solved!
Incident 2) Vehicle is owned for 1 month. One day, customer approaches car with remote and presses “unlock” with no response. Tries again and again, even right up at the car, with no response at all. Customer is late for work already, gets neighbor to drive them over to convenience store to buy battery. Opens remote, replaces battery, tries again. No response at all. Tries again and again and again. Nothing. Customer calls dealer and is advised to tow it in (no problem because customer has tow coverage). Service folks find that wire harness connecting antenna to module wasn’t snapped in and came loose. Fixed it in 2 minutes. But customer already missed more than half a day of work.
Each of these are counted as one reliability incident and have equal weight in the ratings. I know they count things like minor panel misalignment or paint swirls as lower level, but anything that required a dealer visit without keeping the vehicle overnight is counted equally (dealer keeping vehicle for more than 24 hours is counted as a higher issue). This is regardless of whether it is a customer issue or a vehicle issue, and regardless of whether it was a minor inconvenience or a major inconvenience to the customer.
(note: this is how they did it a few years (decades?) ago, it is entirely possible that they changed methodology since then and have many more levels of “reliability” issues and weighting today.)
2 Likes
I don’t really understand your point. CR doesn’t see the detailed information of the Incidents; they get a rating from the end-user. CR would certainly not have the time or staffing to evaluate thousands/millions of these types of incidents. If I’m the user in Incident 1 I wouldn’t rate the car badly for that experience. But someone else might.
JimA
Kind of a beta tester with my last purchase 6 years ago. Not a new car all together but an updated/new model design which sometimes is like a new car all together. Had some qualms but it was the first 3rd row SUV that I could actually comfortably sit in the 3rd row. Toss in all the safety improvements over my old SUV, better mileage, more towing capacity, etc., and I was sold. Have been throughly pleased. The only thing that went “wrong” was with all the electronics/computer stuff, they came to my house and installed a OS update primarily dealing with the timing of the valves.
I think both sides are likely correct on this. There are more problems with some EVs and many of the complaints are based on higher consumer expectations of those vehicles. JD Power found something similar:
When I originally read this, many Alfa Romeo owners chimed it to state that their expectations are so low (largely based on how terrible Alfa’s used to be) that they just don’t complain about the small stuff.
I think it fair to assign some of the higher numbers to simply higher expectations. Not all but certainly sum since the data is based on self-reported problems.