Never saw the benefit of electic cars

Investment Analysis Clubs Macro Economic Trends and Risks
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That is debatable. It all depends on how you produce the hydrogen. A grid connected electrolyzer, with grid connected compressor and liquefier is going to use more electricity than just charging an EV. By a factor of 2x to 3x, at least.

Just saying that hydrogen is green because your electricity comes from hydro (for example) does make is “green” but that doesn’t make it consume less electricity than a BEV.

Currently, most hydrogen (mostly for industrial uses, I guess) comes from NG.

Mike

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My understanding is the benefit to Hydrogen and fuel cells is the fast “recharge” that comes with re-filling a tank of compressed gas. Battery EVs use less electricity overall but are most convenient when you can charge over-night when time is not a consideration. Its a trade off.

The ultimate goal is to lessen the dependance on petroleum and lessen emissions. Both can achieve that goal.

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Hydrogen gas is being used in combustion engines. Its waste product is heat and water. Liquid sources hydrogen like industrial ammonia (cheap and available) is used in fuel cells. I think there is research and development being done on both types of engines. Actually as I read about these types of ‘engines’, its apparent that this is very interesting information. I didn’t realize it was discovered so long ago…doc

Hydrogen combustion, explained | Airbus

Hydrogen fuel cells, explained | Airbus

Hydrogen internal combustion engines and hydrogen fuel cells | Cummins Inc.

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It would probably impact the grid more. It takes about 100 kW of electricity to generate 80kW of hydrogen fuel. At that point you could burn it in your vehicle directly which is only about 25% efficient, so you only get about 20kW of energy out of the original 100. Or you could use it in a fuel cell to generate electricity which is more like 60% efficient, but you still only get about half the original energy. So if the world were to move towards hydrogen cars there would need to be much bigger increase in electrical generation than using battery vehicles.

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Losing electricity means you also lose your TV, computers, appliances, and in some cases heating. Walking is the least of their worries.

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Your starting number of 80% efficiency with electrolysis (my assumption) is quite high. Plus to refuel a car/truck you will need to compress it and liquefy it, consuming another 10-15%…and there is leakage since you’ll need a large storage tank (or pipelines) if you have lots of vehicles to refuel like a gas station. And then you use the fuel cell to generate electricity to operate the vehicle. This is, at best about 60% efficient, but only after a warm up period. Short trips in a fuel cell kill the efficiency, unlike in a BEV.

So to solve this you can add a battery like a PHEV. But then you need to recharge it at home like a BEV!
And then give the car hints as to how long you are going to drive to optimize the warm up period.

Mike

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Natural gas pipelines are also unprotected and vulnerable. As will be hydrogen pipelines.

Infrastructure remains vulnerable.

Recall the big natural gas explosion in Edison NJ. The reports said someone had used a backhoe to bury a friends pickup truck and scratched the pipeline. Explosion gave huge fire that burned nearby buildings from its heat.

I have seen those pipelines. Two of them. Abt 4 ft in diameter. And they come to the surface from time to time probably at compressor stations. Undefended. And probably indefensible.

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There was one over near Napa years ago, as they added onto it, they had to blow off the contents, the noise, just driving by 50 yards away was amazingly LOUD! They added access points to slip in the inspection ‘Pigs’ to check the pipes from the inside. They do that on oil pipes as well…

Where they get in trouble is when some manager writes it off as all done, when it hasn’t been, bad welds or even defects in the steel pipes, slip by to save a buck or two, and maybe a neighborhood blows up.

We had an 8" high pressure line about a half block away until they relocated the feed so it was out of the residential area. All the utilities have a lot of vulnerabilities, need oversight, watchful neighbors, cameras, etc… Telecom had to harden their switching centers years ago, now the other utilities have to also pay attention…

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BP doubles down on hydrogen as fuel of the future | Reuters
Step inside the new BMW iX5 Hydrogen | BMW | Discover BMW
Top 8 Best Hydrogen Cars in 2022 (carsinfozone.com)
Electric Vs Hydrogen Cars: Everything You Need To Know (msn.com)
Apparently there are some options on hydrogen cars we haven’t heard about and a lot of information on the pros and cons. Personally I never saw the benefit of electric cars…doc

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Have you ever driven one? Especially one with some power (i.e. not a Leaf)? The throttle response, the power curve. They make big blocks cry.

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Not yet, but partly for the same reason I haven’t driven my inlaw’s 750HP GT500 Super Snake. I don’t feel I can afford to repair/replace it if I lose it, so I leave the driving to him…

Niece/Nephew are DINKs, he’s deep into robotic surgical design, training Docs in the use of the DaVinci lineup, she was an HR manager until recently retiring. They had impressive M3 & M5 BMWs, they are gone, replaced by a couple Teslas, completely satisfied, solar panels hold their costs down, very happy with performance, again, I resist test drives… But I do like to see the tech moving forward…

No need for speed, so we’ll likely look more into a hybrid next year or so… No solar yet, but that could change, power walls intrigue me, but at my age, not sure it’s for me, maybe for my heir…

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Also oil pipelines are also vulnerable. Remember the Colonial Pipeline was shutdown by hackers in 2021.

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As a mechanical engineer, I see major benefits of electric cars for the whole world.

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Do you need to see a list of benefits? (Here’s a few)

  • Less energy usage (MPGe of 100 - 130 compared to gas average of 25 mpg, with a range of ~15 - 55)
  • This translates into lower fuel costs
  • Regenerative braking reduces brake wear and saves energy
  • No local air pollution, especially important in dense cities
  • Minimal warmup penalty for short trips on fuel usage
  • Energy is generally domestic while marginal gas usage is imported
  • Possible to generate your own (cheap) fuel via solar panels
  • Can start each day with full tank
  • No pumping smelly gas
  • Far less maintenance due to fewer moving parts, no oil changes, no tune ups
  • Electric motors last longer than gas engines and rarely require any maintenance
  • High torque makes EVs performance leaders – maybe too much in some cases
  • Lower CO2 and other emissions even if coal is the electricity source

There are certainly some negatives

  • Purchase price is higher (but dropping due to fewer parts, etc.) and TCO is about even now
  • Availability of fast chargers for long trips (Not really an issue for Teslas now)
  • Fast charging recharge time (20-30 minutes for ~80% compared to 5-10 min for gas)
  • Range degraded in cold weather due to lower battery capacity and need to heat car
  • Not all car/truck types available as EVs (so far) such as need to tow boats/RVs
  • For daily charging need to be able to install a home L2 charger or at work/apartment (or live near a fast charger)

Most of the negatives aren’t issues for some people but will incrementally improve as volume increases, more models are introduced and battery technology and manufacturing advance.

There are also a number of myths, such as you have to replace your battery. Very few owners have ever had to do this. Probably not zero though.

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DB2

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My main personal benefit are the following four items:

  1. My nice 4-door sedan needed to be replaced last year. I replaced it with a nice 4-door EV sedan. I spent about as much on it as I would have spent on a replacement ICE vehicle. But, while my previous ICE got about 50 miles out of $10 of gasoline (over its lifetime), my current EV gets over 270 miles out of $10 of electricity.
  2. A family member purchased a used EV hatchback to be used almost entirely for commuting and errands. Previously they were driving our minivan for the commute which is extremely wasteful (18 mi/gal for one person!) and the EV is far more efficient to move one person back and forth from their workplace. BUT, the biggest benefit is that there is a huge solar array above the parking lot at their office, with 2 EV chargers beneath it. And there is no cost for charging there right now. We estimate a savings on gasoline of about 1200 gallons of gasoline since purchasing that car, that’s a savings of about $4,000!
  3. There is hardly any annual maintenance for EVs. That’s for a few reasons. Mainly because there are very few moving parts, so less lubrication needs to be replaced/checked. But also, brakes are hardly used in an EV (I think I need to tap the brake pedal at most once or twice a week) because of regenerative braking. This is a nice benefit because it means I don’t have to take the cars periodically to a mechanic for all the usual stuff. Just have to rotate wheels and check the tires and add windshield washer fluid. That’s pretty much the extent of regular maintenance.
  4. On long trips, perhaps two or three times a year, the drive is made much more comfortable due to the usual new gizmos that assist the driver (though most new ICE cars in that price range have similar gizmos), but also because the style of long distance driving has changed a bit. We used to want to power through the whole drive as quickly as possible, stop for gas, nag everyone to get to the bathroom quickly, buy coffee quickly, and get back to the car fast so we can “be on our way”. Now, with the EV, I plug it in to the supercharger, take a leisurely walk to the rest stop area, everyone uses the bathroom as necessary, wait on line at Dunkin/etc for a coffee, maybe get a snack, and then leisurely walk back to the car, and it’s sufficiently recharged at that point, maybe 15-20 minutes later to continue our journey. Much more relaxed after being able to calmly stretch your legs on a long drive.

So those four are my personal benefits. And very representative of the benefits seen by most EV owners.

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I am not a big fan of electric cars, but behind them the future, unambiguously. I’m sure they will improve them and will soon use them. At work in the LegalFiles, the file was deleted Tesla 3 for use. She is wonderful as the second car in the family

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Now here is a car that appears tempting…doc

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That article is very suspect to me. Because it appears to have MANY inaccuracies and illogical things in it. It’s almost like the author made most of it up!

  1. Apple has never announced a future car, nor have they ever set a date for such a thing. So how could there be a “delay” if there was no date to begin with?
  2. How did they get a photo of a nonexistent thing? Probably created in photoshop by the publication.
  3. Apple has its own cloud service, so why would they subcontract it to someone else? And even if they did ultimately subcontract it, they would likely do all the development on their own cloud to preserve some semblance of secrecy.
  4. In an autonomous or even semi-autonomous vehicle, nothing can rely on the cloud, so the cloud will likely only be used mainly for data collection purposes to improve the onboard AI functions in later software releases.
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Apple to Charge Under $100,000 for Apple Car, Launch Planned for 2026 - MacRumors

New Apple Car rumor suggests 2026 debut at less than $100,000 | AppleInsider

Apple’s rumored electric car may not be fully self-driving after all (yahoo.com)

Apple Car Reportedly Coming In 2026 At Under $100K Without Level 5 Self-Driving (insideevs.com)

Apple Car: everything we know so far | TechRadar

Apparently there is more information than one would believe…doc

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