Wow. Those are hardly Arab/Muslim dens of terrorism. Big moves afoot on the “peace front”.
intercst
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Hamas could have done this since 2007.
The reason Hamas has not declared a country the group does not agree to the borders. The group will not recognize Israel.
Israel should tell the world where the border is. Gaza is Gaza.
Maybe now that Yasser Arafat is long dead, they can find someone on the West Bank to form a Government? Of course, you might have to dismantle some of the illegal settlements.
intercst
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The PLO and Hamas do not believe in free elections. The two groups do not believe in civil rights or freedom of religion.
Israel has tried to tell you. Because there is no counterparty to work with.
The US a stable democracy finds itself for the first time truly under threat. Imagine Israel with no counterparties trying to share power.
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The US is really more of a corporate oligarchy than a representative democracy. That’s why it’s under threat. Unlimited money to buy politicians will do that.
intercst
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There is truth in that but it is hardly that simple.
The US has voted endlessly.
Hamas and the PLO have no voting. That is their choice. That is not the Palestinian’s choice.
Israel can not take Hamas and the PLO as partners in peace.
More importantly Hamas won’t sit down with Israel. Gaza has an easier to define border. Hamas rejects any border. There has been violence against Israel since 2007.
The three state solution would be best with Israel making the other two states economically prosperous.
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Expect endless wars in the region that usually have nothing to do with Israel, the US or EU.
No one cares about Muslims killing each other or the famines and disease that result.
Spare me how a war started by a religiously crazy group needs to end in a stalemate because Israel is involved.
The military strongmen and religious nutcases need to be pushed aside by the Arabs. I am sure the people know that.
It has nothing to do with other people having other religions. Most of these wars are about Muslims killing each other.
If you need to talk a lot about it give the other four wars equal time. I get you do not care about them.
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Nifty contradiction. No border = Israel to the Med. NOT what Hamas thought (if they think, that is).
You can’t separate Hamas the PLO and Palestinians. They are all Palestinians with just different factions. If what you were calling the Palestinians would take power than Hamas and the PLO would be nothing but a far right wing party without power. But since the more moderate group refuses to confront the more radical part of their people they get what they have now. That is why it is important to stand up to the groups that are radical on either ends of a spectrum. They should have a small voice where ideas can percolate and move into the more reasonable part of the spectrum. But when the radical portion of the group takes over the whole party this is exactly what you get.
Andy
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I am discussing two factions that have locked out the others.
For clarity, since I think some of these terms are being used imprecisely:
The PLO is an organization that is the recognized representative of the Palestinian people, both within the boundaries of the original Mandate (ie. West Bank and Gaza) or in other countries (ie. the millions of Palestinians who live in Jordan, Syria, and elsewhere). It is not the government of a specific territory. It is itself comprised of numerous groups, including Fatah, the PFLP, and the DFLP. Hamas was never formally part of the PLO.
The Palestinian Authority or PA is the governmental body that has de jeure jurisdiction over the Palestinian territories defined in the Oslo accords (West Bank A and B and Gaza).
Fatah is the political party and faction that controls the PA.
Hamas is the political party and terrorist organization that has de facto control over the West Bank. It was a participant in the PA until the 2007 split with Fatah.
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Maybe Palestinians need a little nudge in the right direction. If countries provide a carrot for Palestinians to coalesce behind a peace seeking political organization, it may result in the majority rejecting extremists.
Unfortunately, that only addresses one side of the problem.
I see that as the problem Leap. People are saying it’s Hamas, or its the PLO. When it is really the Palestinians. If one faction takes over a country and the citizens of that country can’t solve the problem themselves, and then that faction starts causing trouble with it’s neighbors. Eventually the neighbors have to come in and clean up the mess. That happens in every war.
Andy
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No for clarity they all are Palestinians.
Andy
After Israel gets done cleaning out the extremists, I hope the world will come in and rebuild Gaza into a peaceful state much like the Marshall plan did for Europe.
Andy
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Also true. But that post was in response to Leap observing that the PLO has no voting - which reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between the PLO and the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority is a governmental body (for which there is an expectation of democratic voting), while the PLO is not a governmental body but instead is an umbrella organization of lots of different groups.
While all of the individual people are Palestinians, organizations and groups - and the distinctions between them - matter immensely to any understanding of the situation.
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Yes we all are Americans but so are Hells Angels and Mongols. The difference is that even though they are Americans I wouldn’t want them running even my local government. It really isn’t that hard to understand.
Andy
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Make it really simple. Hamas says there is no border.
As a result, Israel’s border extends to the Med. There is no Gaza/Palestine/whatever–per Hamas.
Israel then rounds up the males in its new territor(ies). As the large major of residents in the new territor(ies) is women and children, the men can be divided into 3 generally equal groups:
Group 1: Going to Ireland. Say 200k.
Group 2: Going to Spain. Say 200k.
Group 3: Going to Norway. Say 200k.
They can be loaded onto ships from the US-built dock.
Choices have consequences. The three countries shall receive 200k more refugees per country coming their way. They are getting the people they publicly recognized, so difficult to not recognize them as refugees. Or are they all hypocrites? 3…2…1…
Hamas loses most of its fighters, bomb makers, and so on. It is now relatively safe to allow aid into the new Israeli territories. The women and children will follow their men in their new homes elsewhere.
Problem solved.
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Thanks for the clarity. I have not been studying the PA.
Study General Petraeus’s approach to war. He took all the people he could aside and got them out of harms way. He supported people. Gladly the insurgents were dealt with. Israel is not doing enough to create a true sense of justice for the average Palestinians. Bibi is clearing the Gaza Strip as if the Palestinians are not human beings. It is a failed strategy.
Hamas is creating an insurgency. The PA is not. The Palestinians generally do not want a war. They do want justice. That is a different matter. That does not mean the Palestinians would disregard a border unlike Hamas.
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But how would you get them to agree to leave Gaza? It’s not like you can force them to leave. That would be a war crime, and/or a crime against humanity. You can’t engage in ethnic cleansing like that - not only is it against international law, but it would be barbaric and inhuman to do so. So I assume you’re talking about some sort of incentive/bribe to get them to choose to emigrate. But I don’t think Israel has the resources to do that.
Plus, I’m not sure why you would single out Norway, Ireland and Spain. There’s more than 170 countries that recognize Palestine as a state. Why would you try to get all those folks to choose to go to those three countries, rather than all the other ones?
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