What's the US goal in the Ukraine?

A few days ago I posted that the US has made it clear that “they’ll give Ukraine enough weapons to defend itself, but not enough to win the war.” Why would that be? Perhaps the US would like to see Russia bogged down in an endless war in Ukraine, much like Afghanistan. We could keep the economic sanctions going forever and bleed the Russian economy back to pre-industrial times. Of course, we’ll kill a lot of Ukrainians in the pursuit of that policy, but it’s an acceptable loss as long as it’s profitable.

The only question is "How long does it take before the military-industrial complex decides we need “US boots on the ground” to focus American public opinion and secure the profit stream from the Ukraine operation.

intercst

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A few days ago I posted that the US has made it clear that “they’ll give Ukraine enough weapons to defend itself, but not enough to win the war.” Why would that be? Perhaps the US would like to see Russia bogged down in an endless war in Ukraine…

Not clear that an endless war in Europe would be in the best interests of the US – and even less so for the EU economy.

DB2

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Not clear that an endless war in Europe would be in the best interests of the US – and even less so for the EU economy.

DB2

This war has forced the EU to cut the energy link, a major influx of cash*, to Russia hurting Russia economy & power. Another brick in the US foreign policy to challenging first Russia. Once Russia has been removed from top tier of power-economically & militarily, the focus will turn toward China.

If the EU is negatively impacted economically that is likely a plus for the US multinational corporations. Economic pain in furtherness of US primacy is a small price to pay methinks in the opinion of US mandarins.

*I expect economic moves from US & NATO countries to further limit the export of Russian fertilizer & nickel to follow.
https://www.rappler.com/business/european-union-sanctions-ru…

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A few days ago I posted that the US has made it clear that “they’ll give Ukraine enough weapons to defend itself, but not enough to win the war.”

It could be simply trying to not provide Putin an excuse for escalation. Anyone notice that, while Putin is having large parts of Ukraine reduced to rubble, Putin has a conniption when a single Ukrainian bomb or shell lands on Russian territory. What would Putin do if the US provided Ukraine with the means to strike deep into Russia?

Steve

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Putin wants to re-create the Russian empire, which includes many NATO countries. Keeping Russia bogged down in Ukraine will prevent Putin from invading the Baltic countries, Poland, Moldova, etc.

One TV news story said yesterday that Putin is running out of quickly available soldiers and may begin a nation-wide draft. That’s a whole new phase that could cause unrest in Russia the way the Vietnam war eventually did in the U.S.

As long as the fighting is constrained to Ukraine with Ukrainian fighters, the U.S. benefits.

Wendy

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One TV news story said yesterday that Putin is running out of quickly available soldiers and may begin a nation-wide draft.

He announced a new draft of some 130,000 a few weeks ago. They have also started trying to get people who had already separated to re-up.

Putin can always call in the favor Lukashenko owes him. In the back of my mind is the thought the withdrawal from around Kyiv and redeployment to the east is a feint, intended to draw Ukrainian forces away from Kyiv, to clear the way for an attack by the Belorussian army in a second attempt to decapitate the Ukrainian government.

Steve

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Putin can always call in the favor Lukashenko owes him. In the back of my mind is the thought the withdrawal from around Kyiv and redeployment to the east is a feint, intended to draw Ukrainian forces away from Kyiv, to clear the way for an attack by the Belorussian army in a second attempt to decapitate the Ukrainian government.

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Bylorussians hate Lukashenko and Putin. These soldiers would be unwilling to fight Ukrainians. They would probably love to fight the Russians.

Jaak

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Bylorussians hate Lukashenko and Putin. These soldiers would be unwilling to fight Ukrainians. They would probably love to fight the Russians.

When the leader is delusional, and surrounds himself with yes-men, who only tell him what he wants to hear, don’t bet on logic and common sense.

Steve

Putin can always call in the favor Lukashenko owes him. In the back of my mind is the thought the withdrawal from around Kyiv and redeployment to the east is a feint, intended to draw Ukrainian forces away from Kyiv, to clear the way for an attack by the Belorussian army in a second attempt to decapitate the Ukrainian government.

Steve


Steve,

I think it is becoming more evident that plan has morphed into wearing down the cities, pinning them down a bit....and then take the south east of the country. In the process drive to the west afterwards.

The issue now is how fast can the western powers get arms to the Ukrainians? Will the Russian kids fight? It is no longer winter. But Russian armor might get bogged down in the mud. If the Ukrainians take out a lot of the armor the Russian men might not fight. Out in the open with little will to fight that will scare the crap out of most of them.

If we have armed the Ukrainians properly this can go Ukraine's way. The longer Mariupol holds out the more likely Ukraine wins this war for the Donbas. The battles wont stop but the Russian public going hungry back home will get word. Putin's longevity will get questioned.
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Something I’ve rarely seen mentioned is looking again at Crimea. My understanding is that there are a lot of oil and gas reserves in the Black Sea around the Crimean peninsula. Those reserves are mostly untapped.

Eight years ago, Putin successfully annexed Crimea under the pretense of it being more Russian than Ukrainian. But I suspect it was to lay a better claim to these reserves, or at least to keep them untapped. Keeping in mind that oil and especially gas are important exports from Russia, those reserves could represent a threat to the export of Russian gas to Europe. If Ukraine were to develop those reserves, they would make Europe less dependent on Russian gas. That is a long-term threat to the Russian economy.

For most of the last decade, simply keeping those reserves out of the world markets has been sufficient. But if Russia were to want to develop those off shore fields, they’d need a way to get them to market. A land route from Crimea and southern Ukraine back to Russia would be very helpful to that project, as would a land route to European markets. Plus, securing those lands would significantly reduce the chance that Ukraine could still claim those reserves as their own.

I don’t believe that Putin is at all foolish or dumb. But I do believe he has too many yes-men around him. He gets fed a regular diet of the information they believe he wants to hear rather than the unvarnished truth. So this invasion of Ukraine was likely undertaken with an overly optimistic understanding of Russian military capabilities, and a material underestimation of the fight both Ukraine and the world would put up against him. Those lies are falling by the way side as it becomes impossible for underlings to shield Putin from the truth. And prices are being paid for that.

The Russian withdrawal from the area around Kyiv seems to make sense in this light. If Putin thought they could quickly overrun Kyiv, remove the existing Ukraine government, and install one favorable to him, that would be an easy way to accomplish his goal.

With that path seeming to fail, it now makes more sense to directly obtain what he wants - Southern Ukraine. Now it makes more sense to simply reduce to rubble everything in the way. So destroying Mariupol and eliminating the population there, while repulsive and likely against the Geneva Conventions, is a logical approach from this point of view. Putin doesn’t need the city or the people in it. He simply needs the land. So drive the people out and kill off those who try to remain. I would expect to see the same thing happen in a couple of smaller cities between Mariupol and the Dniper river. Across the river, Mycolaiv would be the next major city, along with Odessa. Odessa has a bit more value as a port, but probably only for the landing of oil and gas produced off shore. Turkey is likely to cut off Russian access to the Bosphorous strait for the foreseeable future. So shipping in or out of Odessa to the rest of the world isn’t likely to be useful to Putin.

With that in mind, I believe the US goal should be to keep Putin from getting to these petroleum reserves and allowing Ukraine to develop them or not as they see fit. I’ll leave it to military experts exactly how to defend southern Ukraine, and possibly reclaim Crimea.

I have no idea if I’m right here, but it’s a thought that I haven’t seen talked about very much. So this seemed like a good place to jot down some of my random thinking and get some input on it.

–Peter

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When the leader is delusional, and surrounds himself with yes-men, who only tell him what he wants to hear, don’t bet on logic and common sense.

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Many dictators are toppled by military who turn on their hated delusional leader.

Jaak

Something I’ve rarely seen mentioned is looking again at Crimea. My understanding is that there are a lot of oil and gas reserves in the Black Sea around the Crimean peninsula. Those reserves are mostly untapped.

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There are articles on the O&G reserves in the Crimea area like the following from 2019:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen/2019/02/28/as-russia…

If you ask Stepan Kubiv, Ukraine’s Energy Minister, what the long-term economic losses will be as a result of Crimea’s annexation in 2014, he’ll tell you to look towards the sea. The Ukrainian Energy Ministry reports that "Ukraine has lost 80% of oil and gas deposits in the Black Sea and a significant part of the port infrastructure due to the annexation of Crimea.” The announcement comes on the heels of a continuing standoff in the adjacent Sea of Azov, where 24 Ukrainian sailors and three navy ships were seized last November by the Russian coast guard.

Jaak

Read the whole article for details.

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